New Cartridge/Revolver

[hastings]

I'd like to see a new medium sized cartridge with a .40 cal bullet, rimmed case similar in length to the 38special, and pushing 950fps. This might be close to the 38-40, but perhaps the case could be shorter, like a 45acp, but rimmed so you didn't need moon clips. I think, after doing some measurements, that you could get six chambers in a K-frame cylinder, but I could be wrong. I know this is close to the 40s&w, but so what. It could be called a 40special, and would make a nice 2-1/2" barreled K-frame six shot for concealed carry without the blast of the 357, but with a wider, heavier bullet. It seems all of the cartridge innovation has been smaller and magnum (327 mag) or larger and magnum (460, 500s&w, ...etc). Why not a middle or the road round designed for a concealed carry revolver, but that is less dependent on velocity and more on bullet weight and diameter. I like the 696, but it is a larger frame, and you only get the five rounds in the thing. Maybe a 40s&w K-frame would fit the bill, but I assume the 646 is an L-frame, and although I used to carry a 2-1/2" 686 it would be nice to have something similar in size to a model 19 with an old-style medium velocity keith-style lead bullet that didn't cause flame cutting and blast your eardrums out. I'm thinking something along the pressure rating of a 44special.

Am I out to lunch on this? I don't have a K-frame to measure. I know the cylinder is 1.45" in diameter, but I don't have the center pin to ceter of chamber-bore dimension. I have a new solid modeling software program similar to my Autocad architectural design software, and I'd like to play around with creating something like I have described. Does anyone know a good source for factory spec. drawings for Smiths (including internal parts) and/or other manufacturers?

Thanks

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, here are some numbers you may find useful. All are measurements of my mid-'50s K-22.

Cylinder diameter: 1.440"
Ratchet diameter: 0.560"
Center pin to center chamber: 0.460" (approximate)

FWIW, I'm not sure that's enough steel for a .40-caliber cartridge, particularly a rimmed one.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[hastings]

Thanks, Ron.

That at least gives me something to work with. I'll start working with those dimensions this evening.

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, it belatedly occurs to me that you'll also need the depth of the cylinder stop notches; those run about 0.045" in my K-22. Notch depth shouldn't matter much in a five-shot gun (the notches would be between the chambers), but definitely would matter in a six-shot gun.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[Combat_Diver]

You might want to look at the .41 Special (shorten .41 Mag case to .38 Spl length, believe Starline makes the cases) that has the performance your looking for. May only be 5 rounds in a K frame.

CD

 

[bobby]

the PC 646 L frame Ti 6 shot 40s&w, cool idea cost a lot. I also know of problems. you had to have moon clips in diff thickness due to rim thinkness diff in brands.

 

[dbarale]

The gun already exists as the 646 (although it is an L frame, I don't think the K frame would work). All we need to do is to come up with a 40 auto rim to use without mon clips. It would also work in the 610 as an added bonus...

 

[hastings]

I mocked up a model on the cad program and the K-frame won't work. The chamber bore is to close to the ratchet to allow for any rim (actually, the chamber probably wouldn't fit, either). A six shot 40 autorim L-frame would be nice, but if you have to go to an L-frame you might as well go with the 696. I'd love to see S&W come out with a 596. If they did, I'd pick one up in a heartbeat.

Thanks for the suggestions, and dimensional info.

 

[ddixie884]

not a .40 or a K, but close

.41 on an L-frame.

 

[scooter123]

Frankly, what you are describing is the 310 Night Guard loaded with the 40 S&W. Yeah, it uses moon clips but you should really try shooting with a moon clip gun. They are not only quick to load, you can load up a bunch of clips before a range trip and spend almost all of your time doing nothing but shooting. Fact is I can shoot up 2 boxes of ammo faster with my 610 than I can with my Sig P229 because reloading magazines is a bit time consuming. In addition I don't have to stoop and pick up brass, which on some days my back really appreciates.

 

[bmcgilvray]

The .41 Long Colt, properly handloaded in a late vintage Colt Army Special or Colt Official Police, would fill the bill. The old obsolete cartridge which came loaded with a 200 grain blunt nose lead bullet wasn't a bad performer. Actual bore diameter was a little over .400 diameter.

 

[hastings]

ddixie884: Is that 41special a PC revolver, or did you have a private smith put it together? That is a really hot revolver. Any info you can share would be greatly appreciated. I'd be interested to hear what you use for 41special loading, and how it compares to other cartridges for recoil. Something like that might be just the ticket.

scooter123: I have a 22-4 Thunder Ranch that I use moon clips with. I agree that nothing loads as quickly as a moonclipped revolver, but I dislike the moonclips for daily carry. When I go to the fields for an afternoon of shooting I can bring along a few hundred rounds loaded in moon clips and reload them later. When I am concealed carrying the 22-4, or taking it for walks or hikes in the woods I would much rather carry a speed strip or a pocket full of loose rounds. I'll be reloading some 45autorim to resolve that problem. Every handgun I own gets carried on occasion, so ease at the range is lower on my priority list than reducing the bulk created by extra rounds in a moon clip.

Thanks, all, for the excellent advice, information, and assistance.

 

[ddixie884]

.41spl L-frame

My .41spl is a David Clements conversion. I posted it and a little info in the 1980 to present section the other day. I got the idea from John Taffin, and Rocky Rabb, and the brass from Starline. Google .41 special to get more info. BMC the .41 colt just has too many issues with dimensions to be a modern answer. It would take custom barrels at .386 and chamber dimension close to the same to make it work as a modern cartridge, not heel type or hollow base.

 

[scooter123]

Hastings, I understand your concern about carrying concealed spares in a moonclip. Currently I don't have that problem because I have no plan to try and conceal my 6 1/2 inch 610. However, I have done a bit of thought experimenting on the chance that I ever come across a 3 inch 610, or decide to get a 310.

The problem with moon clips is that are bulky, a bit fragile, and difficult to conceal. However, the moon clips for the 610 or 310 are very easy to convert to half moon clips, which are much easier to conceal. All you have to do is split them with a cutoff wheel in a Dremel. Then it's a simple matter of getting some belt pouches made up for the half moon clips. Heck, I just remembered that my brother carries his cell phone in a horizontal waist carrier that would probably carry 4 half moon clips quite nicely, next time I talk to him I'll have to ask where he got it.

 

[SaberOne]

I have a j-frame with a moon provision but I don’t use it necessarily for a quick reload. At the time it seemed like a good idea but now; it just provides a more sanitary and 'safer' method for unloading/loading for servicing, handling, etc. Likewise, it sure beats chasing those loose rounds that invariably roll around in different directions. When one round is removed they're all removed and vise versa.