NEW GENERATION FRUSTRATION RANT

[Old Corp]

Good thread.
I have a different perspective. I work p/t at a LGS, and am also a CC Instructor. My CC Instruction is not related to the store, nor do I recieve any sort of commission on store sales.

I have observed on the gun forums that it's quite fashionable to slam employees of GS's.
In short - it personally benefits me none, whether the buyer/looker obtains a Colt Gold Cup or a used Jennings .380.

I, and the guys I work with make every effort to steer a purchaser, especially a new shooter, towards the best common sense choice of hardware we have or can get for their intended or stated need.

BUT, let me repeat, BUT - you should see or hear the 'consultants' that some inexperienced people use or bring along to help them make their decisions.
I've almost spit coffee through my nose when, asking to help a small group at the pistol counter, and hear that a member of the group has brought along an 'advisor' to help select a defense handgun.

The 'advisor' has been among the following:

-His Dad was a Highway Patrol Trooper
- He was in the Army (M.O.S. - Motor Pool)
- He used to belong to an un-named outlaw motorcycle gang
- He grew up on a farm (and knows that a .22 will kill anything)
- He's worked for 'an agency that doesn't exist', and "can't really talk about anywhere he's been" (oh, brother. - he works for Jiffy Lube...)

...I could go on for a bit longer, but ALL the above has been encountered, honestly.

So, before you pile on GS clerks for steering someone wrong, there's usually more to it than that.

 

[Tracer_Bullet]

A co-worker was getting her concealed pistol license last spring and asked me what kind of gun she should get. I don't tell anyone to get a particular gun or kind of gun, but I am willing to help them look at several that may meet their needs, or explain why I don't think a particular gun is a good choice for what they want. I discussed some pros and cons of various guns that she seemed to be interested in and invited her over to check out the guns that my wife and I have that were the same or similar to what she wanted, and to shoot anything that she wanted so she could get a feel for for what she liked. She didn't take us up on the offer to look at or shoot our guns, but asked me to accompany her to the gun shop and help her pick something out before she took her class for the permit. We had a day set to go to the shop, but she got impatient and went a few days early (I think she got paid and the money was burning a hole in her pocket). From what I understand she told the clerk how much she had to spend and bought the first gun that he showed her at the high end of her price range. She shot the gun for the first time a day or two before the class for her permit and hated it, then struggled through the class with it because she had already paid for the class. The instructor would have loaned her a different gun, but she was determined to work with what she would actually have. I don't think that she has shot the gun since the class, and when I suggest trading it in on something else she shrugs and says she can't afford a better gun.
On one hand, I'm disappointed that she didn't take the time to look at all of the options (including good used guns that she could have afforded) and educate herself so that she could get a gun that she would have liked and that suited her needs. OTOH, it was her money, her gun, and her choice, and there's nothing I can really do about it.

My wife's best friend, on the other hand, is the opposite. She is patient, asks a lot of questions, listens to what we have to say, does research on her own, and asks more questions if she doesn't understand something. After finding out what she wanted the gun for, I helped her compile a list of suitable guns and added, "or something similar to one of those" so that she would know that I was not pushing a particular gun on her and that other guns we hadn't thought of may also be suitable. We have taken her to the range and gun shop several times so that she could try different guns out and find something that she likes. She selects a gun she is interested in, we discuss whether it will meet her needs, I make sure she can reach the trigger comfortably, hold the gun properly, operate the gun and any safeties, and field strip the gun in question by herself. Then, if possible we go to the range with the gun so she can try it out. After about half a dozen range trips with about a dozen different guns, she seems to like my 3913 the best, so I will probably be helping her track down a good 3913 when she gets the money together to buy her own.

 

[oldafsp]

Sometimes you just can't keep folks from their own stupidity.

Many years ago, a good friend got his pistol permit. Of course he rushed right down to the Mecca of Firearms Gun Shop and made his "Home Defense" purchase.

Now, this fella is a good sort. Nice guy. But...he never listens to anyone. Not even his best buddy...me.

So on Sunday afternoon I get the tradional phone call.

"Man!Yougottacomeuphereandseemynewgun!!!!"

Uh-oh Suddenly, I'm terrified. Ok..I'll be there in an hour.

He lives in a very secluded area. Behind the house there is nothing for about 2 miles in any direction.

He meets me in the driveway. With the....HOLY ****!!!
I was stunned,mortified and most of all very afraid for him.

A brandie new Model 29 with a 4 inch barrel...Holy Mary Mother of God....his HOUSE GUN.

Of course he hasn't fired it yet, so I start delaying the dreaded moment. He is gettin antsy. It's gonna get dark soon,he says. Yep.

After the sun has been down for a good 30 minutes, I told him, bring that cannon outside for a minute. And one round only.

But I need my hearing protectors. Nope, just load up and point that howitzer down back and let'r rip .....

It's 2 am and you hear someone in the house...you don't have time, you have to protect yourself, I told him. And put my fingers in my ears.

The rest as they say, is history gentlemen. For three days he thought the phone was ringing and couldn't see jack for about 15.

He understood then what I tried to impart previously.
The 29 went away and was replaced by a Model 64....

I do truly regret doing that to him. And I am sure he suffered some hearing loss from that. But the lesson he learned was most important....it don't have to be the biggest..it's how you shoot it.

These days I just kinda sit back waiting to see what will happen next.

 

[Sportsterguy]

Been there and know you're frustrations.

For newbies I always recommend a 4" K frame for home SD and a good old 870 shotgun loaded with OO buck as I don't trust autoloading shotguns and the 870 is to this day the best shotgun for the money IMHO. For CC I recommend a 2.5, 3 or 4" K (sights or fixed) for concealability. Never recommend a J as I've seen folks have big time problems shooting them with any accuracy and accuracy wins every time. Most people do not practice nearly enough and the J's require more practice than any other frame size to master. I do tell them to use .38 or .38 +P's versus magnums as the .38 is the easier caliber to shoot acuately and won't cause them to develop a flinch thats hard to cure.

If they have some experience I recommend a good Sig 228 or 226 in 9mm or one of the snub K's. The Sigs are accurate, reliable and low recoiling weapons with more rounds. Two of the best semi's ever made IMO and have only seen one 226 malfunction in many years. Was from an extremely dirty magazine filled with small bits of gravel at an IPSC match. Tell them all to do lots of dry firing drills to get used to the trigger and at the LEAST a monthly trip to the range. A Glock is also a great weapon, but I just don't like plastic and am not a fan of their triggers. Some great deals on a 17 to be had and you can't get anymore reliable, but them double stacks are harder to conceal due to their grip width.

I'm a 1911 guy thanks to shooting and owning many of them since 1978 on a constant basis. Great platform and with a trigger job set at 4.5 lbs are a dream to shoot. I've had great expeiences with Colts but for the money a Springer Mil-Spec is the best deal out there for a 1911. Seen way too many Kimbers malfunction to ever own or recommend one for SD. For an experienced shooter it's to this day the best semi ever made for carry and has a variety of bullet weights to choose from, but I'm a SGD kinda guy and load my mags with 230 grainers. A 1911 is nice and flat and can be hidden easily compared to the double stack semi's. I find them easier to hide than my K frames in a Lobo IWB holster and are comfortable to boot. Most punks/BG's are used to grab and shoot these days. A plus for the 1911 is that thumb safety. If you lose your weapon in a gun grab the safety devices built into it could save your life by giving you enough time to regain control of it and break a wrist in the process.

I personally have a 2 of my K and L frames stowed in strategic hiding spots in the house in case of emergency and I don't have my 1911 on. You would have a VERY hard time finding them. They are both loaded with 158 gr. Speer Gold Dot + P's so that my wife can control them.

In closing I also tell them to go to a GS that has a range with rentals and try the different handguns out or try out one of mine. What works for me may not work for another. I just relate my experiences from shooting just about all of the popular brands, models and calibers out there and what I would OR would not carry in a life or death confrontation.

 

[scooter123]

Oldafsp

Taint nothing wrong with a model 29 for Home Defense, you just load it up with 44 spl. Compared to the 44 Magnum the Special is a real pussycat and very easy to handle in an N frame.

 

[Tracer_Bullet]

Actually, it's great having my wife around when female friends or co-workers ask about guns, because the wife can give them some additional opinions from her perspective and experience. Some of them approach her first about guns and shooting, and I get brought in later to help work up a list of possible guns to meet their needs and wants since I have more experience with a wider variety of guns.

 

[Pointblank2U]

My wife applied for her CCW here in Ohio and when she took the course I let her use my beautiful old 19 2&1/2", white outline, red ramp. She shot the best in the course and the instructor liked the gun so much he went out and bought one. It's a Cadillac disguised as a snubby.

 

[fyimo]

With new shooters as they age age and gain shooting experience some of them will actually figure it out and start to buy the right gun for them. All to often they either start out asking a bubby who may know or not know that much about guns or they go with the latest hot firearm that may or may not be the right choice for them.

 

[leadlobber]

I have enjoyed reading this entire thread. Many truths and good opinions/rants here for sure!

Coming from a Highly technical background in cars (KNOW IT ALL!), people would ask me about how to best modify their car for more performance.

I have also always been a gun nut since I was about 6, and I am 33 now....

so people would and still do ask me about what gun I think will work best for what need they have for it....




I have found that Young and Old generations are stubborn and hard-headed.....


When I worked at the hot rod shop, selling parts for street and drag cars, I got quite a reputation for knowing how to make it go fast, reliably, without breaking the bank. Cars are all about the right combinations.

The funny thing is, finding the right gun for an owner and the intended use is the same thing. It is all about the right fit of owner to gun combination.

I know why so many smart old gunsmiths/firearms instructors/car guys that really know their stuff are so short and rude with so many people......

Sometimes, it seems that You have to tell people what they need to do to keep from messing up, instead of simply suggesting an opinion.

I got into this mode, and I tell people upfront that I don't want to waste my time or their's if all they are going to do is listen to me blah, blah, blah, and then do something different that the local auto parts clerk or gun shop helper says anyways. Once I have their attention, I listen intently for what they are trying to accomplish with their car or firearm. I then give them a list of best choices and tell them, if You don't start with one of these, You are probably making the wrong choice and don't come crying to me about it later.

This usually gets their respect and understanding that I really do genuinely care about their question and situation, and they will abide by my advice 9 out of 10 times. If not, it ticks them off and they get all huffy. If that happens, I say, go ahead and try it another way, good luck to You, and wash my hands and conscience of it with them.

The bottom line, coming from a BLACK-gun generation of high-capacity-is-king that I did, is that most of the Black guns are great for MEN or Women who shoot often, are duty officers, don't try and conceal the pistol as civilians, and understand that any automatic is more likely to fail than a revolver.

For personal defense and enjoyment, I have owned 3 Glocks, a S&W MP40 (which I enjoyed more than the Glocks), a Taurus titanium 651 .357 snubbie (handled terrible, bad double action trigger, KICKED LIKE A MULE with .357), and finally my little Sig P238 is the one I settled on for carry right now.

I knew that the little Taurus 651 and Sig P238 were the only practical carry guns before I bought the others, but, I bought the others at such a good deal that I couldn't pass them up, and sold all of them for $100+ profit each. I ended up selling that Taurus 651 for a $320 profit!!!!

The long and short is that I will probably look for a S&W compact .38/.357 or .22 Magnum snubby now in a casual manner, without hurry.

The S&W bodyguard snubby that I showed/talked my friend into for his wife has been superb for them! He had bought her a Taurus PT111 9mm against my advice and she HATED it. When he brought the bodyguard home for her, he said her eyes lit up and she said, "when can we go shoot it?". Needless to say, that snubby was a perfect fit for her and she loves to shoot it. The trigger is a very nice double action and she can really shoot well with it. She carries it in her purse at all times or in her car when she can't carry inside somewhere not allowed.

Why did I choose a Sig P238? It is the only compact .380 that is all metal, lightweight, and has a very-important-to-me-SINGLE-ACTION trigger pull that I could find for less than $800. I HATE the long-stroke, double action safety triggers on these compact .380's and mid size semi-autos. With the Sig P238, it is flat and I can carry it in my front pocket without showing very comfortably. I can shoot a 3 inch group with it one handed at 15 yards, so accuracy is not an issue either.

I am a big guy, and I live in Hotter than Hades Texas. You can't conceal anything under a second shirt here, or You will practically die from a heat stroke. If we had open carry here, I would probably carry my new-to-me S&W Model 28-2 HP, but, even in Texas, there are too many gun hating idiots for that possibility....but, that is a whole different debate.


To sum up that long-winded speech, I guess I would just say:


Keep on giving advice-recommendations to those who You think will heed it well. Don't get sour and mad if someone doesn't adhere to the advice, and just chalk it up to human ignorance/hard-headed character/stupidity without it souring your advice to the next person who asks You for help. Remember, everyone is different and not all Young or older people are receptive or even resistant to advice. Some Young kids really do want to know the best way, and they really do want to know from an older or wiser "expert", and they will listen..... please help them, because without some good and valuable knowledge passing to our Youth, this Country will be doomed for sure. If the older person doesn't listen, just chalk it up to them being senile and smile at them when they gripe to You about their gun they bought instead of the one You recommended.

 

[medalguy]

Leadlobber, yours is probably the best post in this whole thread. I enjoyed it.

You're right in that not everyone will listen to good advice. I've been offering gun advice for a lot of years and I just came to the conclusion that advice is just that, advice, and if they don't want to take it, fine, doesn't hurt me at all. You can't force anyone to follow your advice.

 

[pawncop]

My approach is as follows:

I will give advice, tell you what I think, share my experience, and then it is up to the person to go from there.

I encourage them to learn all they can, come back if they have questions, be glad to help, etc, etc. etc.

Over the years, some have followed my advice, many have not, the pay is the same.

They need to educate themselves, determine their needs, I am honored to be one resource for them in their journey.

 

[fxntime]

I'm a 1911 guy and own them manufactured from the teens to a few years ago and I still recommend a good quality revolver from a US manufacturer for someone new to handguns. They are safe, reliable, quality, easy to learn, clean, and to take care of. Are less susceptible to "whatever on sale" ammo reliability wise, will work with different ammo power levels and can be fit to someones oddball hand size far easier then a semi auto.

And they promptly forget every reason I put forth and buy something they can't shoot, intimidates them, can't figure out how it goes together when they start taking it apart past the field strip level, but it's cool and "modern".

Such is life.