New Model #3 Disassembly Problems!

[wpboatr]

Trying to disassemble my New Model #3 is giving me worry and angst! I can unscrew the hinge screw on the left side just fine. However the pin on the other side won’t come out. I’ve tried tapping thru from the left side using a punch but it won’t budge and I don’t wanna damage anything. Is there some special trick to removing the barrel/frame hinge pin?
Thanks! Wyatt

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! You might want to PM model3SW or RCT269. They might be able to tell you something quickly. I have some reference materials that I could go through and see if I can answer your question if you can't get one quickly.

Guy

 

[deadin]

Soak it with Kroil (or other penetrating oil of your choice) Give it a couple of days to work, then back off the slotted screw about a half to a full turn, lay the frame on a piece of hardwood with a hole in it that will clear the stud. Take another piece of hard wood , lay it on the screwhead that is protruding and whack it with a hammer.


Never has failed for me.......

 

[rct269]

I can't tell you something quickly because I tend to run my mouth just for something to do in my spare time.

First of all, I know of no special trick.

My gunsmith would tell you "It's amazing what a little heat will do."-----after he got it out in about 5 minutes----for $25. I don't know how much heat---also don't know where.

That's pretty much the end of what I don't know.

My first inclination would be to very certainly support the hinge area surrounding the joint pivot (as well as the rest of the gun), and no more tapping---smack it one.(!!) It's either moved or it hasn't. Assuming it hasn't, I'm going to submerge the gun in whatever your favorite penetrating solution is, and go play with my children's mother.

I'm going to leave it submerged for at least three times as long as I think it's necessary, and smack it again.

My favorite solution is Kroil. A lot of folks in this hive are fond of a brew I've never tried---a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone (Don't be breathing the fumes!!)

Patience is a virtue.

Ralph Tremaine

And Dean's suggestion above is certainly viable---as long as you have a spare joint pivot and joint pivot screw.

 

[rct269]

And as an aside, good on you for using a punch---just so long as it was a brass punch---and not a steel punch.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[deadin]

as long as you have a spare joint pivot and joint pivot screw.

Haven't bent or stripped one yet and I've used this method for at least 50 or 60 years.......


Heat always makes me nervous, especially if there is a nice finish involved. Usually these jammed hinge pins are the result of someone not aligning the witness marks on the stud/frame when reassembling.

 

[mmaher94087]

I use the whack-a-mole process too and I'm a fan of Ed's Red (50/50 acetone and ATF). As stated; only back the joint pivot screw out 1/2 - 2/3 turn as this minimizes bending or stripping the screw.

 

[opoefc]

I'm assuming you have a valid reason for wanting to disassemble your Model 3 and , if so, I vote for Dean's method as that has always worked for me, however heat can work if carefully applied . When you put the gun back together be sure that witness mark is aligned correctly. Ed

 

[glowe]

They often don't fall right out and after 140 years may need some soak time with penetrating oil. My method is to take a piece of pine and drill a hole in it bigger than the hinge pin head. After soaking, lay the gun over the hole and back out the screw just a bit, leaving most of the threads in the hinge pin. Give it one good tap with a proper fit screwdriver fit into the slot and check for movement. Then back out the screw a little more and tap it again. Should be enough to remove just about any hinge pin. I find that a flat punch can deform the head of the screw and close up the slot, so the screwdriver works best for me.

 

[gmborkovic]

Just be careful with the grips. Better yet, remove grips and place in a safe
place.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Trying to disassemble my New Model #3 is giving me worry and angst! I can unscrew the hinge screw on the left side just fine. However the pin on the other side won’t come out. I’ve tried tapping thru from the left side using a punch but it won’t budge and I don’t wanna damage anything. Is there some special trick to removing the barrel/frame hinge pin?
Thanks! Wyatt

Why are you dis-assembling it?

 

[wpboatr]

Oyeboteb and opoefc , I’m disassembling it because
1. I want to give it a good cleaning
2. I intend to fire it with blackpowder loads and want to make sure I’ll be able to disassemble it afterwards!

All, good suggestions on the Kroil (never heard of that) and the “Dean” method! I actually considered something like that but hoped I could get a hold of an alternate longer screw with identical Shaft and thread dimensions!

 

[Oyeboteb]

Oyeboteb and opoefc , I’m disassembling it because
1. I want to give it a good cleaning
2. I intend to fire it with blackpowder loads and want to make sure I’ll be able to disassemble it afterwards!

All, good suggestions on the Kroil (never heard of that) and the “Dean” method! I actually considered something like that but hoped I could get a hold of an alternate longer screw with identical Shaft and thread dimensions!

There is no need to ever dis-assemble the Revolver, let alone to do so so such extremes, merely with firing Black powder loads.

The most one would ever do is to just remove the Cylinder, then warm Soapy Water and a Nylon Bore Brush through the Barrel Bore and through the Cylinder Chambers/Bores. dry with a hand-held hair Drier with the Revolver propped on a rumpled Towel.

Use right lube ( Beeswax wafer between Bullet and Powder ) for the Bullet, and with any good grade of BP, the Revolver will stay cleaner than Modern Revolvers do with 'Unique'.

I've fired thousands of rounds of 3F with no cleaning at all, and I have no fouling, no Cylinder binding, and no trace of anything to even suggest the Revolver is dirty.

There is no need to ever do what you are doing.

Even the worst grades of BP ( like 'Goex' ) will never make for fouling which would get in to the Rule-Joint of the Frame.

 

[mmaher94087]

".. but hoped I could get a hold of an alternate longer screw with identical Shaft and thread dimensions!". S&W has proprietary threads. Unless you find another S&W screw with longer threads for your project, I'm afraid you are out of luck.

 

[wpboatr]

Good to know about S&Ws proprietary threading!
I like the tip on using a hair dryer. I've always used an oven but I think I'll try the hair dryer method as I like the idea of that.

Also good to know I can remove the cylinder without removing the barrel assembly; however... how do you do that? Even with the top latch assembly removed the cylinder does not come off. I thought the barrel needed to come off in order to free the cylinder.
I guess I'm missing something. Can you help with that too?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

WPboatr, the cylinder is kept from being pulled off the center pin by a flat plate with a lip found under the latch. The lip is pointing downward and serves as a stop when the cylinder moves backward. On the top strap of the gun just in front of the latch is either a round head screw or a knurled knob depending on which issue of the #3 you have. That has to be loosened to let the cylinder catch move upward to allow the cylinder to clear. You can see it from this picture of my Russian #3, 3rd Model.

 

[model3sw]

Hi, Wyatt.

Anyway ... use a good penetrate oil, let it soak in. Then, remove the joint screw with the barrel snapped closed.

Put the screw back in, appx. 2 turns then tap the head of the screw gently with either a plastic tip "gear hammer" or a brass hammer, very carefully. Just enough that it is raised from the threaded pin. Too high and you'll likely blow the 120+ year old threaded parts.

Once it lets loose from the part it is stuck to ... finish removing the screw, then it should come right out.

Well that is if no one tampered with it. I've seen heads of some screws that broke off, put back on with crazy glue just for the cosmetic affect to make it look like it's OK.

While yours is just likely stuck from age and crud ... it happens.

Remember "gently" If you want to lightly clamp it in a vise I would recommend you either use hard nylon / plastic jaws (more like a jewelry vise) or a HEAVY piece of leather to line the jaws of the vise if the jaws are serrated as most normal, mechanics' type vises.

Heavy leather ... I'm talking about a piece of an old thick belt or what I use are the leather interior seat covers / hides from cars that I had replaced the leather sometime in the past. I keep a few skins around to use for this and many other devices. They come in handy.

Best Regards, Sal Raimondi, Sr.

Many years ago, I had a special tap and die custom made for the sideplate screws. It was expensive back then but worth every penny as the screws on a Model 3 are not any SAE or other type standard thread. I don't recall if the hinge screw and threads are identical thread and pitch as the sideplate screws however, IIRC, they are not perfectly identical.

 

[wpboatr]

Hey there again Guy! That's kind of what I thought and I actually completely removed the latch assembly but the cylinder still 'bumps' against something or is otherwise blocked by something else from being removed. Maybe it has to do with the model type I have (I'm pretty sure it's around a turn of century release). I would attach a picture but I can't figure out how; however the latch is actually completely removed.
Thanks! Wyatt

 

[ChoochContrino]

Hey there again Guy! That's kind of what I thought and I actually completely removed the latch assembly but the cylinder still 'bumps' against something or is otherwise blocked by something else from being removed. Maybe it has to do with the model type I have (I'm pretty sure it's around a turn of century release). I would attach a picture but I can't figure out how; however the latch is actually completely removed.
Thanks! Wyatt

OP, be careful if you take the extractor cam out. It’s a three piece assembly with one of the pieces being a very small flat spring, maybe 5/16” long x 0.0625 wide. This spring holds the latch in the cam. If you want to see similar top-break revolvers completely disassembled visit my Instagram page for several S&W revolvers documented through the cleaning process. The page is @maryland_cerakote on Instagram. I frequently work on many revolvers and show the parts laid out. I’m not selling anything, just trying to help, I’m not looking for work. My webpage photos also update off of Instagram if you don’t have an Instagram account. MarylandCerakote.com but Instagram would be better. Be careful, as others have discussed, these parts are old and hard to get. Even if you can get them they are not plug and play.

Chooch

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Hey there again Guy! That's kind of what I thought and I actually completely removed the latch assembly but the cylinder still 'bumps' against something or is otherwise blocked by something else from being removed. Maybe it has to do with the model type I have (I'm pretty sure it's around a turn of century release). I would attach a picture but I can't figure out how; however the latch is actually completely removed.
Thanks! Wyatt

Wyatt, try this. Reassemble the latch. Loosen the cylinder catch so the lip is above the rim of the cylinder. With the barrel pointed down to close the ejector star, lift the latch up like you are unlatching the barrel and hold it up. Grasp the cylinder and turn it to the left (right hand threads) to unscrew it from the center pin. Reverse to reinstall.

 

[Oyeboteb]

WPboatr, the cylinder is kept from being pulled off the center pin by a flat plate with a lip found under the latch. The lip is pointing downward and serves as a stop when the cylinder moves backward. On the top strap of the gun just in front of the latch is either a round head screw or a knurled knob depending on which issue of the #3 you have. That has to be loosened to let the cylinder catch move upward to allow the cylinder to clear. You can see it from this picture of my Russian #3, 3rd Model.

Hi Wiregrassguy,


I am pretty sure OP said he has a 'New Model 3', not a 'Model 3'...and, if so, then it's a different Ballgame with Cylinder removal for these two!

NM3, just lift the Latch and out she comes! Much easier..!

 

[Oyeboteb]

Hey there again Guy! That's kind of what I thought and I actually completely removed the latch assembly but the cylinder still 'bumps' against something or is otherwise blocked by something else from being removed. Maybe it has to do with the model type I have (I'm pretty sure it's around a turn of century release). I would attach a picture but I can't figure out how; however the latch is actually completely removed.
Thanks! Wyatt

To remove the Cylinder on a 'New Model 3', all one needs to do, all one does do, is to have the Revolver open, lift the Latch up, and then the Cylinder unscrews from it's Axel-Stem and comes off, comes out.

Nothing needs to be taken apart, no screws are involved...no Tools are needed.

"Model 3" was a different Revolver from the 'New Model 3'.

Viz:

Hosted on Fotki


Hosted on Fotki


Hosted on Fotki

 

[mmaher94087]

"To remove the Cylinder on a 'New Model 3', all one needs to do, all one does do, is to have the Revolver open, lift the Latch up, and then the Cylinder unscrews from it's Axel-Stem and comes off, comes out."

Hold the latch up while lifting up on the cylinder and turn it counterclockwise. The threads are called interrupted threads which allows the cylinder to thread on to the "quill" and, due to the interrupted threads, spin freely when fully seated. The replacement is the same (hold the latch up) and screw the cylinder clockwise until it spins freely.

 

[wpboatr]

Welp, that worked! This was my first venture into the S&W type top break revolvers (reproduction or original) All I had to do was lift up and hold the latch, then pull up gently on the cylinder as a rotated counter clockwise and it came right now. If I decide to keep trying to work at that hinge pin I'll try the trick with the kroil and see how that pans out!

 

[model3sw]

"To remove the Cylinder on a 'New Model 3', all one needs to do, all one does do, is to have the Revolver open, lift the Latch up, and then the Cylinder unscrews from it's Axel-Stem and comes off, comes out."

Hold the latch up while lifting up on the cylinder and turn it counterclockwise. The threads are called interrupted threads which allows the cylinder to thread on to the "quill" and, due to the interrupted threads, spin freely when fully seated. The replacement is the same (hold the latch up) and screw the cylinder clockwise until it spins freely.

Wyatt,

In response to your PM to me, see Mike Maher above, describes it accurately. Thanks, Mike.

Remember hold the latch up high and hard or you'll make the dreaded "cork-screw"-like scratch damage in the side of the cylinder.

Best Regards, Sal