New Model #3 Target

[Dan M]

This past weekend I got my usual schooling from Uncle Ed (opoefc) about another couple Old Antique Smiths. I downloaded the pictures onto my laptop and promptly lost them/loaded them into another file and then couldnt find them in the 35 Gigs worth of Pictures. Anyways here is a beautiful New Model # 3 that Ed had on the table for sale.

thanks Ed I will post the other gun tonight.

Dan

 

[opoefc]

Dan always comes to the Yuma AZ show and shoots nice pics of whatever goodies I have for sale. This particular NM#3 recently came out of the bushes in Southern Calif. Further research is being done to see if the person who special ordered the gun from S&W can be identified. A particular nice feature of this gun is the checkered trigger, which I believe to be factory. I have found over the years that the factory shipping records do a poor job of listing special features on special order guns, so the letter cannot state all those features present on the gun but not included in the shipping ledger. If the invoice can be found, then you will know what was ordered and what was provided the customer. All numbers match on the above gun, except no number on the stocks, not unusual for special order target guns. Ed #15

 

[Ballarat]

Gentlemen, that is a beautiful piece and thoroughly enjoyed the pictures, thanks for sharing them.

Rgds
Bob

 

[opoefc]

Bob, Your're right. S&Ws don't come any better than a gun like this. My long time friend, the late Colin Dobson, of Queensland, Australia, would have jumped on this gun like a duck on a June bug, had he still be alive to see it and it would have gone down under like so many other great S&Ws he bought from me over the years. I was fortunate enough to buy back many of those guns from his estate auction, however I'm sure there were many great S&Ws purchased by other Aussie collectors, like your self perhaps. Were you acquainted with Colin? He was well known in shooting & collecting circles in Australia and the USA, and represented Australia in the Creedmore matches and in earlier times on the Olympic shooting teams. Ed #15

 

[Ballarat]

Gday Ed, unfortunately I never met Colin. I am just starting out collecting model 3 and Victory models, so always on the lookout here for any examples that may come up. To date I just have a couple of Victories and my pride and joy reject Russian contract OOM from 1872.

Rgds
Bob

 

[Modelof1891]

Ed, Just checking to see if you have found any deeper information on this BEAUTY!!!

 

[opoefc]

Research has hit a dead end, so far. H & D Folsom's records destroyed long ago. I was hoping some of the matches fired , circa the period that this gun was ordered, might identify the type of revolver that was used by the winners or particpants, but most match records I 've found only say the shooter used a Colt or S&W, but not the model. There may be a invoice or record of the order for this gun in the CVHM S&W archives that will solve most of the mystery, but those records will have to wait for the S&WHA digitizing process, etc. Ed.

 

[Feinwerk]

I realize that this thread may be terminally dormant, but I will ask anyway. I have a New Model #3 that is very similar to this, even to the front and rear sites, but it is nickel and the SN is 98xx (not hiding the number, I just am not near it to look). Therefore, it must be quite a bit older that the above one. It is in amazingly good condition. Even the few parts that are not nickel are flawless. SN intact on cylinder and, I think, on the rear sight.

Is it likely to be safe to fire (it looks like it is) and would I use BP or a smokelss load? If so, what? The trigger is great and I would love to shoot it. I am a competative shooter, not really a big collector of things, other than target pistols.

 

[opoefc]

Feinwerk, Welcome to the Forum! While these NM#3 Target guns are black powder guns, in my experience they will shoot safely using modern made smokeless powder .44 Russian cartridges, especialy the cowboy shooter rounds. Ed

 

[mel023]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but given Ballarat's location in Australia (former home of the America's Cup which now resides in it's proper and rightful place ) and his stated interest in the Victory model, I was wondering if he can decifer some of the marks on my Victory. It's actually a pre-Victory .38 S&W. I believe it falls in the Lend-Lease period. It has lots of Commonwealth type markings such as Broad Arrows alone, "D" Broad Arrow "D", "L" over Broad Arrow over 26 and FTR\MA 53. It also is marked Vega SAC CA, which I believe is the Vega Company, a re-importer of these firearms after WWII.

Any further info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[opoefc]

melo23, If you search the Forum archives for Victory Model markings, and/or Australian Victories, you will find postings that clarify all the above stampings. Ballarat probably knows, but he may not see this thread before you can find the answers in the Forum archives. ( For example, FTR\MA53 means "Factory Thorough Repair \ MA arsenal 1953" ) Ed.

 

[Ballarat]

Gday mel023, your revolver markings D arrow D is a British and Commonwealth marking meaning department of defence. Sometimes just the broad arrow stands alone. Anoth common marking on Aussie guns is ''DaD'' the small a having a dash above it rather like a French accented letter, again Dept of Defence Australia.
FTR means it was refurbished in Australia at Lithgow New South Wales (L) means that armoury. The 26 I am not sure about it could be the person allocated the job MA53 means it was done in 1953. The gun was probably sold as surplus sometime after this date, was then re-imported to the USA. Probably a job lot of many surplus firearms when the Commonwealth sidearm went from revolvers to the 9mm Browning semi-auto.

Hey, the cup, well you can keep it, its not really big enough to have a decent drink out of!!

Rgds
Bob

 

[mel023]

Bob,
Thanks for the reply. I had figured out what the FTR\MA 53 meant but I wasn't sure about the rest of it. There must be a good half dozen of the government/military broad arrows on the right side of the frame either alone or in some combination.

Any idea how many times one of these Lend-Lease or Victory models would have cycled through some armory? Or would it have stayed in use until the switch over to the 9mm and it's subsequent surplussing?

By the way, there are some additional marks on the bottom of the grip frame to the right of the lanyard ring. There's a "WP" with a line above them (like the opposite of an underline) and a "P" above the typical ordnance bomb symbol. Do you know what these are?

Glad to know y'all aren't that interested in our Cup anymore. We'll be pleased as punch to keep it for another 100+ years. Now if we can just get those Kiwis to take the same attitude. I think that's what the folks from New Zealand are called aren't they?

 

[Ballarat]

Gday mel023, No idea how many times those revolvers would have gone through a refurbish, your example probably only the once when they were being assembled and collected for surplus sale. The P mark does appear on victory models, just a proof mark, but according to my info only on serial numbers above V400000. So a bit of a mystery. WP with line atop cannot help either, its a new one to me. It is definately WP not WB?
Just found some more info, some early guns including the pre victory lend lease did carry the P on the butt again just a mark that the revolver passed military proof testing. If the mark is WB then thats the acceptance mark of ordnance officer Waldemar Bromberg which was placed on the butt next to the flaming bomb symbol.

 

[rhmc24]

I have the same s/n 266xx with factory letter saying shipped to France in 1891. EXC inside and 60% outside, has monogram VM engraved on top of frame behind hammer and "FINI PAR GASTINNE-RENETTE" on bbl left of muzzle. I bought it in France in a second hand furniture store in 1950 for $18. Took it to Belgian Congo and shot at a leopard (missed) and a civet and scored. Also used it routing a nite-time intruder there. Memory lane----

 

[Feinwerk]

Ed: Thanks very much for the reply. What I wondered about was that the sights on the pistol are not like anything in Supica's excellent book. It seems that, perhaps, a serious target shooter (Paine, Gould, or others) had this older model done up with newer sights. There is not a spot of rust anywhere. It looks better than most modern guns. It there any source for which guns wer used by particular old-time shooter? Gould's book does not list this. Of course, the great shooters were his friends and he may not have considered how much we would want to know this 120 years later. Bob

 

[mel023]

Bob,
Thanks for the additional info. I think I've got all or least most of the marks decifered now. It's entirely possible that the mark I thought was "WP" is a "WB" with a lightly struck "B". Looking at it with a light and a magnifying glass there appears a be a bit of a tail comong off the bottom of the loop on the "P just like you'd see in a weak "B". So, I'm going to accept that it is in fact the inspector's mark for Mr. Bromberg.