New S/W Q.A. going down hill

[buckyjames1]

So let me start a thread based on personal experiences only.
No..."I heard, or read a thread that a guy..."
No..."I read that the IL can malfunction while shooting"
I'm interested in personal accounts only.
I'm just curious how widespread issues are. If someone gets their feelings hurt because other smith owners are concerned on quality issues then too bad. IMHO: Smith is not the greatest American product it once was.

Example #1
-Model 620 sent to P/C for custom work. less than 1 box of rds later this happened to me

Example #2
I received a slight upgrade 686+ 4in as a replacement and "Sorry bout that". Took it to range and it would not hold a group. I checked pistol and the rear sight was wayyy out of specs. It was loose and moved while shooting. After some negotiations S/W just sent me another rear sight and now it shoots great.

Example #3
Sent a M60-10 to P/C for lotsa work. Received pistol back in a timely fashion and was dry firing when...snap...pistol locked up. I disassembled it and this fell out.

Again S/W promptly sent me a "free of charge" replacement. Maybe if the Q.A. was better they would not have to keep repairing new weapons. I wonder what their yearly shipping costs are with all those "labels" having to be given out on defective pistols that people keep returning. Problem is I like the way smiths feel in the hands and I just hate to see an American icon like S/W producing or allowing to leave the factory such sub-par products

 

[Dale53]

Buckyjames1;
It is pitiful that one person gets this much grief!

I have been buying and shooting Smith's for fifty years. During the time period that Smith was owned by the British company, I bought two new revolvers that had to go back. One had an ejector star that was soft and wore out in just over a year of modest shooting. The other broke the hammer pivot off after two years ownership. I had to pay out of my pocket BOTH times. GR-rr-r-r-r-r-r! Neither could have been owner caused. They weren't even nice about it. My dealer even went to bat for me to no avail.

In the last couple of years, I have bought at least four Smiths. The two 625's have been flat out WONDERFUL! The Model 520, likewise. The PC Light Hunter was used by like new and wouldn't reliably fire. It just needed a new main spring tension screw (someone had ground it too short) and a long length firing pin. That may have been tampered with - don't know. However, it is NOW in the WONDERFUL category (I bought it "so right" that a bit of foolin' around to get it up to speed was a "no, nevermind".

So, in my personal experience, I have little to complain about and much to praise. Maybe it's just the luck of the draw?

FWIW
Dale53

 

[stantheman86]

Like many other gun makers they use the customer as final Q/C.

I have a 10-14 made in 2004 that I bought used, it fails to carry up on 3 of the chambers, looks like the ratchet where it engages the hand was filed too much. The other 3 chambers time perfectly, and yes, I tested it with empty shells in the chambers I e-mailed S&W and they told me to "call for a shipping label" to send it back.......I am not paying $40 for a new extractor and spending MY time to fit it, it should work as is. It is used but looks hardly fired, no reason a $350 used S&W from 2004 should be out of time.

I also bought a 617 10-shot 6" brand new and it has been immaculate, bought it this summer and already have several thousand rounds on it with 0 issues, shoots like a .22 rifle out to 25 yards.

Also have a 2003 64-7 and it is one of my best S&W's, and I have dozens of them. Action is bone stock, it was a security trade in, very slick, times perfect and shoots WAY better than any 4" fixed sight .38 should be able to.

My biggest complaint with "new" S&W revolvers is that they stopped putting wood on them, at least the main production guns not counting the Classic and PC guns. For the price I paid for my 617 it should have included a set of wood grips too.

 

[diamonback68]

Example #1
-Model 620 sent to P/C for custom work. less than 1 box of rds later this happened to me

Bucky, that is really weird. The barrel insert looks like "pot metal".

Sorry for your heartaches. You need to buy more old ones.

 

[scooter123]

Allow me to put in a counterpoint, the following 14 round target was shot today at 35 yards from a sandbag rest with my 2008 production model 620. Note the 3 outlyers on the right, I believe those were due to my needing to to refine my release skills. If those are dropped as flyers the group on the left exhibits the 620 is capable of stunning accuracy and the ammo used, American Eagle 38 spl. 130 grain FMJ, has a bit of velocity spread. BTW, that grouping on the left measures 7/8 inch in width and 2.4 inches in height, center to center. I'll also note the POA was the red bull in the center and the sighting does need a bit of tuning for this particular load. However since I am still trying to find the best shooting ammo for the 620 I'm not going to bother with the sight at this point.

I plan on ordering some Speer Lawman 158 grain TMJ +P and trying that next. Previously I've shot the 620 with an old stashed box of Lawman 125 grain TMJ and the total vertical spread was under 1/2 inch, horizontal was 1.75 inch.

Bottomline, with continued practice, and top notch ammo, I am convinced the 620 will prove capable of grouping under an inch at 35 yards. In better hands than mine, it'll probably group under an inch at 50 yards.

As for the gun, it's had about 200 round of 357 Magnum run through it and about 1200 rounds of 38 spl. I'll admit that I don't shoot a lot of 357 Magnums, at 30 dollars a box it's just too expensive and more than 35 rounds in one session causes issues with my wrist. Haven't shot the barrel off it and haven't had any issues at all with it at all.

Quite simply, IMO you've had a run of bad luck. However, problems like this occur with any hand made complex product and it always has. Do a bit of reading on W. Edwards Deming and Statistical Process Control. The average Defect rate for a Human Being in hand inspection is a clearly demonstratable 15% and it's always existed. What Deming prooved was that the ONLY economical method to INSURE quality was by designing manufacturing processes that could not make a defective product. With all the handwork that goes into a S&W revolver, I have no doubt that throughout much of it's history the Defect rate was much higher than it is today. What has changed is that today we actually see people reporting defects instead of just shrugging and having them fixed. In addition most gunshops today won't repair a new gun out of the box, it doesn't happen often enough to keep a skilled gunsmith on salary, they would rather have the manufacturer fix it. However I expect back in the earlier part of the 20th century there were untold numbers of revolvers that got a bit of work done before they ever left the shop, probably before they were even put on display.

To sum it up, with the modern equipment and quality systems in use today S&W is probably producing the finest quality revolvers they've ever made. However that Human element is still in play and it will still cause problems. There is also the simple fact that many manufacturers will cut corners at times when demand surges. Deming would preach that this should not be allowed but Deming didn't have to answer to stockholders or the banks. The good news is that this type of quality "slide" is pretty cyclic in nature and is normally corrected before it becomes extreme. Bascially, you've had some bad luck and are "due" for a change. Hopefully the next 10 or 20 guns you purchase will be total perfection because you are due for the scales to swing back in balance.

 

[Electric Head]

I bought a 686-6 a couple of months ago - there is a chamfer on the left side of the forcing cone, like an entrance for the cylinder when closing it, the rest of the gap is great, 0.1mm but on that section 0.2mm. It doesn't spit anything but still not good. It has burrs on the outer edge of it too.

Also the crown was poor, full lug 6" barrel, flat(ish) face and 45 degree chamfer that was ok at the top and tapered off as it went around either side and was non-existent at the bottom. I recut it.

When I fixed up the crown I disassembled it and cleaned it, put some metal polish in where the rebound slide goes and worked it and the slide together about 100 times, polished the visible parts of the hammer and trigger (for looks) and regreased / oiled and DA is certainly slicker now. Apart from those above issues it works great, timing is good, you can pull the trigger with one finger and get it to click the cylinder stop before the hammer falls. When I first got it I had to use both hands to have enough control to pull the trigger that slowly.

 

[stantheman86]

It's a good point made by scooter, back in "the day" there was no internet for everyone to post their experiences.

If you bought a defective Hand Ejector back in 1907 you would take it to a gunsmith or back to the shop you bought it at, if they had a gunsmith on staff. I'm sure quite a few people just made do with a Smith that had imperfect timing, didn't hit to POA, spit some lead,etc. as long as it went bang 6 times.

If anything, with CNC and all this computer aided crap, quality SHOULD be better than ever with minimal to no hand fitting at the S&W plant. But mistakes do happen. Which is why my motto with any gun I use for CC or HD, old or new, is I won't trust my life to it until I have fired at least 500 full power rounds through it with no issues. And then I still continue to shoot it regularly. I figure after 500 rounds if nothing has broken by then, I can load it up and hope for the best if I ever have to use it for anything "serious". I must admit, I keep a Ruger GP100 for HD but I am using my mid-80's Model 60 for CC right now.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I had to send 2 ea. 29's back in the early seventies. One for a broken hammer stud and one that came with an egg shaped chamber causing difficult extraction. Both were promply fixed for free. Of the large pile I've accumilated since I've had 0..nada..no troube.
My gripe with them now is. Why in the $*^$&^$!!!! did they go to full lug barrels and rubber grips! Also the nice radius on the frame by the hammer is gone with "the lock". J's & K's look like the frame is now tryin to swallow the hammer. Not as bad on the N-frames.

 

[SWMod10]

S&W has nothing on Sig Sauer. The new Sig guns are horrible in the QC department.

Finish wearing way too early-in some cases, right from the box-accuracy all over the place, FTF, FTE, parts breaking, etc.

Sig is like S&W-Only the old guns are now prized. If you have a older Sig P series-Pre the old Kimber CEO coming to Sig-The you have a valuable pistol.

After Cohen arrived at Sig, not so much.

 

[Wayne M]

The only consolation is that ALL the major manufacturers are having QC problems right now. Spend some time on some of the other Forums and don't give up hope on any of the gun makers.

On the other hand, back in the early '80's(yeah, 1980's!) I took a six inch Python into my local shop to have it returned to Colt. When the owner somewhat sarcastically asked what the problem was I opened the cylinder, gave the muzzle a good spin and the barrel promptly unscrewed and fell off on his countertop. Nobodies immune and no time period is junk free. Problem is when you encounter junk today it's more expensive than at any time before.

 

[stantheman86]

I had an 1870's era .38 S&W DA break-top that was out of time, in single action it didn't carry into lockup. The gun looked hardly fired, it had probably been out of time since it left the factory and no one noticed or cared. If you fired it in DA it went bang 5 times and that's probably all the original owner cared about

It's also a law of averages, most of us have many, many more S&W's or other manufacturer's guns than the "average" guy, I met a so called self proclaimed "S&W nut" at the range, he was talking to me like I was a noob, then I told him I had over 20 S&W revolvers on top of about 25 or so Rugers, and I had brought 5 Smiths to the range to shoot......and he's like "you have 5 of them HERE?!?That's 3 more than I even own?!?" like it was unheard of......so many of us stand more of a chance of getting a "lemon" when we buy 10-20 S&W's a year. Most "average" S&W owners don't post on the internet because they have 1 or 2 of them and probably don't shoot them much. We just see more of the problems because we own more and shoot more.

S&W "gets away with" some sloppy QC here and there because most times the "bad" guns are "good enough" and the owner of a new 686+ with slightly bad carryup, a raspy trigger pull or some cosmetic flaws doesn't even notice or care because he only shoots 50 rounds a year out of it. I would say the vast majority of new S&W's are just fine, and out of the "lemons" they just get sent back for correction and we never hear about them. Some dealers are on top of stuff and inspect all the new Smiths they get in and return bad ones before buyers even see them.

 

[scooter123]

S&W has nothing on Sig Sauer. The new Sig guns are horrible in the QC department.

Finish wearing way too early-in some cases, right from the box-accuracy all over the place, FTF, FTE, parts breaking, etc.

Sig is like S&W-Only the old guns are now prized. If you have a older Sig P series-Pre the old Kimber CEO coming to Sig-The you have a valuable pistol.

After Cohen arrived at Sig, not so much.

Another blanket statement due to internet complaints. In addition to my S&W 620 I've purchased 2 new Sig Sauer pistols in the past 2 years.

One is my 2008 USA production 40 caliber P239. Yesterday I put another 100 rounds on it, 75 of which were weak hand practice. I now have run 1800 rounds through the P239 and have had only ONE SINGLE malfunction. That was a round of Federal Champion that failed to fire in spite of being hit 3 times. Obviously a dud primer and not in any way Sig's fault.

The second is my 2009 USA production P229 Elite Stainless. Also totally problem free but not shot nearly as much as my P239. Turns out that it's a bit too smooth to shoot and I don't enjoy shooting it as much. Accuracy is superb, so superb that it's not very challenging to shoot well with and a bit of "'ho hum" another 2 inch group boring. Turns out it's a bit like a Lincoln Town Car when I am more suited to the 68 Mustang in Bullet.

So do I like, or approve of some of the things that gunmakers have done? Certainly NOT. However, I don't live in a vacuum or some misty eyed dream world, I've spent 29 years in the real world as a Manufacturing and Design Engineer. Manufacturing quality is always in a state of flux, which means sometimes it's sterling and sometimes some real clunkers get out. However, the long term trend has been nothing but UP. If you don't believe that, ask your grandfather how many times he had to return a new car before it was right.

In addition, companies like S&W and Sig do have to meet the expectations of their stockholders and banks. This means that must generate a Profit and they can't stand pat on an old product line. As a reult of this they will "chase" the market to some extent with the result of guns like the Sig P238 which had a long history of problems back when it was the Colt Mustang. Also witness S&W's issues with the new Bodyguard series. As an old fart, I think it's a dumb market to chase, however it's a hot segment at the moment so I understand why they are chasing this market. However, I never will understand why anyone would want a handgun too light to enjoy shooting with, IMO "pocket pistols" and the people who buy them are rather foolish. But it's their money they are spending, not mine, so they are free to do what they want. The only thing that concerns me is that I NEVER see anyone practicing with one of these toys, if I ever see someone pull one out for defense I intend to dive for cover because who knows what they will hit.

The good news is that I expect that S&W will sort out the problems with the Bodyguards. As for the Sig P238, they'll either sort it out or do what they should have done from the start, an update of the P232.

 

[SWMod10]

Another blanket statement due to internet complaints. In addition to my S&W 620 I've purchased 2 new Sig Sauer pistols in the past 2 years.

One is my 2008 USA production 40 caliber P239. Yesterday I put another 100 rounds on it, 75 of which were weak hand practice. I now have run 1800 rounds through the P239 and have had only ONE SINGLE malfunction. That was a round of Federal Champion that failed to fire in spite of being hit 3 times. Obviously a dud primer and not in any way Sig's fault.

The second is my 2009 USA production P229 Elite Stainless. Also totally problem free but not shot nearly as much as my P239. Turns out that it's a bit too smooth to shoot and I don't enjoy shooting it as much. Accuracy is superb, so superb that it's not very challenging to shoot well with and a bit of "'ho hum" another 2 inch group boring. Turns out it's a bit like a Lincoln Town Car when I am more suited to the 68 Mustang in Bullet.

So do I like, or approve of some of the things that gunmakers have done? Certainly NOT. However, I don't live in a vacuum or some misty eyed dream world, I've spent 29 years in the real world as a Manufacturing and Design Engineer. Manufacturing quality is always in a state of flux, which means sometimes it's sterling and sometimes some real clunkers get out. However, the long term trend has been nothing but UP. If you don't believe that, ask your grandfather how many times he had to return a new car before it was right.

In addition, companies like S&W and Sig do have to meet the expectations of their stockholders and banks. This means that must generate a Profit and they can't stand pat on an old product line. As a reult of this they will "chase" the market to some extent with the result of guns like the Sig P238 which had a long history of problems back when it was the Colt Mustang. Also witness S&W's issues with the new Bodyguard series. As an old fart, I think it's a dumb market to chase, however it's a hot segment at the moment so I understand why they are chasing this market. However, I never will understand why anyone would want a handgun too light to enjoy shooting with, IMO "pocket pistols" and the people who buy them are rather foolish. But it's their money they are spending, not mine, so they are free to do what they want. The only thing that concerns me is that I NEVER see anyone practicing with one of these toys, if I ever see someone pull one out for defense I intend to dive for cover because who knows what they will hit.

The good news is that I expect that S&W will sort out the problems with the Bodyguards. As for the Sig P238, they'll either sort it out or do what they should have done from the start, an update of the P232.

Mine opinion is based on fact, not some internet hype.

I had a brand new P220 Carry that would not go through a full mag with out a failure to extract.

300 rounds later I called Sig, got the famous "It needs to be broken in." I told them I tried to get it "broke in", and I stopped at 300 rounds, because I don't like wasting ammo.

I send it in, got it back with the standard "Adjusted extractor and ejector" note.

Guess what? Still would not extract factory or handloads. In fact the failure to extract rate went from every 4-5 rounds to every 2-3 rounds.

Once again, called Sig, sent it back. Got it back, still would not extract right, same old note-"Adjusted the extractor and ejector". I called Sig and asked them if they shot it. They said yes, 2 full mags.

Horse hockey, if they would have they would have seen that it was still not extracting properly.

I had enough, I took it back the dealer and although he did not have to, I traded in it on a HK USP Compact .45 instead. That HK has been flawless through 1000 rounds.

My dealer is a stand up guy and stands behind what he sells, even when the companies that he sells don't. Sig had 2 chances to make it right and failed.

I have personally seen anodizing flaking off of Sig frames, uneven finish and too many FTF and FTE that I could count.

I have owned Sigs since the late 80's and I can tell you that their quality had suffered in the last few years. They even lost out in the ATF contract trials.

Does every company turn out lemons? Sure they do. But when the level of quality falls at such a rate like Sig's have in the last few years, it stands out.

Is alot of what you read on the net a dogpile? Yes, it can be. But I have seen the failures and the defects first hand, and not just my own P220.

I don't have to be an engineer to see when a company's quality has declined. I can see that with my own 2 eyes and 30+ years of firearms ownership.

 

[stantheman86]

Could it be S&W has been cranking out more guns to catch up with the "post Obama" buying craze and also the skyrocketing numbers of people exercising their right to apply for CCW permits in legal states?

Thus, more of a "get 'em out the door" attitude at S&W, probably along with staff cutbacks and less experienced assemblers and QC inspectors, with a "good enough for govt. work" viewpoint........ Snub revolvers are hot right now because many non-gun people turned into gun owners and carriers overnight and are scared off by the "complicated" semi auto handguns, they prefer something they can drop 5 or 6 rounds into, carry and if need be point and squeeze. No one can deny Taurus is not the shining example of quality but those cheap M85 snubs fly out of gun shops. The average buyer of those probably doesn't put more than 20 rounds through them.

It is true, QC is a "flux" , people quickly forget S&W turned out a few turds in the late 70's and early 80's during the last gasps of B-P ownership, I know I have a couple of them

 

[sw282]

si---------

 

[stantheman86]

Never can tell, my 10-10 has oversized chambers, so the brass is bulged when I eject it. So much so the spent brass will not chamber in a "normal" revolver. It shoots straight and I use it to shoot cheap reloads, so I just drive on with it!

 

[Ghostofwar]

I bought a new M&P9 Pro Series. The front sight loosened up on the first range trip and moved around from shot to shot. I sent it back and they replaced to cheap fiber optic sights for the 3 dot sights per my request for free. Problem solved. It's the 2nd new M&P I've bought and just one of many Smiths. It's the only problem I've had so far. However, my friend did have a M&P 15-22 blow up on him last week. It didn't really blow up, but from how he describes it, there was a loud pop and the extractor blew out. I though that was strange, but I'm going to investigate that incident some more.