New to the Site. Please Help Identify

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Greetings All,
I'm new to the sight but have been collecting S&W's for a few years. I just obtained a pre-model 10, .38 Special hand ejector, 5" barrel. After opening the side plate, I found it is different from any other K-frame I've worked on. It has the normal flat mainspring and an additional flat spring that powers the trigger rebound function and bolt. It also has a pinned blade front sight, a driftable rear sight. a round butt that once must have had a lanyard loop as part of the serial number is obscured by a plug. The full serial number, however, is stamped on the underside of the barrel. There are some other numbers stamped in numerous places throughout the piece that don't match the serial number (perhaps a date of manufacture). Additionally, the serial number on the cylinder does not match. The cylinder appears to be parkerized or perhaps a dull blue finish, where the remainder of the gun was once blued. There are telltale lines in each chamber, as if the chambers were bored to accept .38 Special cartridges.
I'm open to any information the site may have, opinions and otherwise. I don't know if the sights are factory or add ons. Reading some other sites, I believe this to be a model 1902 but not certain.
Thank You all for any information you might provide.

Paul
 

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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! It seems you have quite the Frankengun, there. You have a .38 M&P Model 1902 frame made around 1904 with a WWII British Service Revolver cylinder. The target sights are probably not factory. We really need to see the entire gun to tell if there is more to the story. The cylinder has been reamed to shoot .38 Special as it originally was chambered for .38 S&W. Are there any proof marks stamped on any of the parts?
 
The S/N has been obliterated by what I can only assume was a lanyard ring hole...I'm not familiar enough with the 1902's to guess whether it originally had one...If the barrel happens to be original, it may still retain the S/N on the barrel flat...A target model too!...:love:...Ben
 
Welcome to the Forum. As Ben suggests, look at the bottom flat on the barrel for a stamped serial number. It looks like you have a Model 1902, 1st Change frame from around 1904-1905 with a serial number that is something like 5?521. I believe the cylinder could have been from a WWII Victory British Service revolver, since there is a "V" stamped. The serial number looks odd and doesn't make sense since I think is is stamped 139985? The BSR was chambered in a slightly larger 38 S&W caliber, but yours has been rebored so it can take the longer 38 Special. Most of the WWII Victory guns were finished in a flat coarse finish similar to parkerizing.

The sights are not factory, but were added later by an owner. It would help to see a picture of the whole gun on both sides and another picture of the barrel flat.
 
The partially missing butt serial number does create a bit of a legality problem. Not sure I would want to keep it. FYI, it is not a pre-Model 10. To collectors, that term applies to M&P revolvers made during the postwar period, approximately 1947-57, having the short action.
 
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I'm wondering if the plunger and spring are still in the yoke. Note the detent in the frame where the cylinder hold open device would be on this model. This letters as a 38 M&P, Model of 1905, 1st change. It has the new trigger rebound but still has the plunger/detent in the yoke. It has also been highly modified.

IMG_0375 (2).JPGIMG_0934 (2).JPG
 
I'm wondering if the plunger and spring are still in the yoke. Note the detent in the frame where the cylinder hold open device would be on this model. This letters as a 38 M&P, Model of 1905, 1st change. It has the new trigger rebound but still has the plunger/detent in the yoke. It has also been highly modified.

View attachment 784727View attachment 784757
Just curious-
Do the barrel and cyl numbers match that butt number?
That number has been re-stamped.
That font and size are NOT correct for that era, not to mention the bounce on the 9, being off center, and the crooked row......
IMG_0934 (2).JPG
 
The partially missing butt serial number does create a bit of a legality problem. Not sure I would want to keep it. FYI, it is not a pre-Model 10. To collectors, that term applies to M&P revolvers made during the postwar period, approximately 1947-57, having the short action.
Serial numbers were not mandatory prior to 1968. This was made well before that. What would the legality issue be?
 
Just curious-
Do the barrel and cyl numbers match that butt number?
That number has been re-stamped.
That font and size are NOT correct for that era, not to mention the bounce on the 9, being off center, and the crooked row......
View attachment 785021
Lee, yes the cylinder and barrel match, however the serial numbered barrel was obviously replaced. The last patent date being DEC 28, 14 and is cut for a barrel ejector rod, so the ejector rod (barrel knob) was also replaced. Did I mention the gun was highly modified? It was shipped to Pacific Hardware & Steel almost exactly 10 months after the big earth quake in SF. I wish I knew where the gun went after that but the custom grips were done by Harry Jarvis. The action and accuracy are amazing. No highjacking intended but I had to get that in.Harry Jarvis gun 007.JPG
 
Altering, removing, or defacing the serial number on any firearm is where the legality issue lies. The details can be viewed at atf.gov.
I honestly didn't think of that. I know modern firearms that defacing a serial number will land you a 10 year vacation. Just thought that it was before the mandate and that it would have been a non issue. I never really researched older firearms until fairly recently. Learn something new everyday.
 
Greetings All,
I'm new to the sight but have been collecting S&W's for a few years. I just obtained a pre-model 10, .38 Special hand ejector, 5" barrel. After opening the side plate, I found it is different from any other K-frame I've worked on. It has the normal flat mainspring and an additional flat spring that powers the trigger rebound function and bolt. It also has a pinned blade front sight, a driftable rear sight. a round butt that once must have had a lanyard loop as part of the serial number is obscured by a plug. The full serial number, however, is stamped on the underside of the barrel. There are some other numbers stamped in numerous places throughout the piece that don't match the serial number (perhaps a date of manufacture). Additionally, the serial number on the cylinder does not match. The cylinder appears to be parkerized or perhaps a dull blue finish, where the remainder of the gun was once blued. There are telltale lines in each chamber, as if the chambers were bored to accept .38 Special cartridges.
I'm open to any information the site may have, opinions and otherwise. I don't know if the sights are factory or add ons. Reading some other sites, I believe this to be a model 1902 but not certain.
Thank You all for any information you might provide.

Paul
Firstly, I thank all of you for your replies. There appears to be a wealth of knowledge on this sight. The serial number on the barrel flat DOES match the grip serial number that is obscured by the lanyard ring plug. The cylinder serial number does NOT match. The other number (19906), stamped on the yoke and frame match each other, but do not match the main serial number. It came with some funky plastic target grips, and I'll search for suitable replacements. Here are additional photos as requested.
 

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The other number (19906), stamped on the yoke and frame match each other, but do not match the main serial number.
That would be the assembly number which has no meaning after it left the factory...The S/N should also be stamped on the yoke but on the rear and only visible through one of the charge holes usually requiring a strong light to see... o_O ...Ben
 
Serial numbers were not mandatory prior to 1968. This was made well before that. What would the legality issue be?
It does not work that way. If it is a post-1898 gun, and originally had a manufacturer-applied SN, alteration, removal or defacement of that SN is a federal crime, and the transfer or possession of that gun is illegal. Different story if it had no factory-applied SN. Before GCA-68, many .22 rifles and lower-priced shotguns did not have factory-applied SNs and they were, and still are, legal. I don't remember seeing any handgun that had no factory-applied SN. See: https://regulations.atf.gov/478-34/2024-13699 Note that "any" means ANY. The law regarding serial numbers does not apply to most guns made prior to 1899, as they are not considered to be regulated "firearms" under GCA-68. Additionally, some states have similar state statutes criminalizing possession of guns with altered, removed or defaced SNs. Such existing State laws could be either more or less punitive than GCA-68. Believe it or not, Texas has such a law. The revolver in question clearly has a defaced serial number on its frame and is post-1898. Not worth the risk of keeping it. Further, no FFL dealer would touch it. There are procedures to get the BATFE to (sometimes) legalize such guns and assign a new SN, but I have understood that is not worth going through the hassle of dealing with them. If you do wish to keep it, a good idea would be to not advertise that you have it. Also, avoid any situations where there is a possibility you might be arrested with it in your possession.
 
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