That has been my experience, also, in my 342PD. Does Federal still make that ammo?
News for Remington "FBI Load" fans:
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hotrod150
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"New and improved" or putting a fancy new name on an old standby generally means an increase in price. Hopefully that will not be the case.
Gents, thank you for helping keep this thread current. On another thread, Ben hutcherson was kind enough to post a photograph of the new HTP load at my behest. From the looks of it, it appears that Remington decided to continue using nickel plated cases as opposed to unplated brass.
Outwardly, the quality appears to be the same as the Express loading. It could just be me, but I'd swear the noses on the HTP were just ever so slightly more tapered.
Outwardly, the quality appears to be the same as the Express loading. It could just be me, but I'd swear the noses on the HTP were just ever so slightly more tapered.
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For those yearning for velocities from the 1970s.......
They were fired in unvented test barrels longer than standard pistol barrels and their pressures were measured by the copper crusher system.
The new piezo system has revealed higher than SAAMI spec pressures and vented barrels get closer to real world velocities.
They were fired in unvented test barrels longer than standard pistol barrels and their pressures were measured by the copper crusher system.
The new piezo system has revealed higher than SAAMI spec pressures and vented barrels get closer to real world velocities.
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I agree that this is more than likely the same old FBI load with a new box (and probably a new price). AFAIK they always sealed the primers and bullets with waterproofing and they always used a soft lead bullet meant to expand. So what's new??
There is however a MISTAKE with the technical data that is posted on Midway's site. They state the velocity is 945 fps yielding 248 ft lbs. of muzzle energy. For a 158 grain bullet moving at 945 the CORRECT muzzle energy SHOULD BE 313 foot pounds. So ....... either the velocity or the muzzle energy is incorrect.
That said..............
Buffalo Bore has the same configuration and weight bullet available NOW. To compare, out of a 4" bbl. Vel. is 1162 ft/sec. and the energy is 474 ft lbs. which is low end .357 Magnum ballistics and blows away the Remington.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
There is however a MISTAKE with the technical data that is posted on Midway's site. They state the velocity is 945 fps yielding 248 ft lbs. of muzzle energy. For a 158 grain bullet moving at 945 the CORRECT muzzle energy SHOULD BE 313 foot pounds. So ....... either the velocity or the muzzle energy is incorrect.
That said..............
Buffalo Bore has the same configuration and weight bullet available NOW. To compare, out of a 4" bbl. Vel. is 1162 ft/sec. and the energy is 474 ft lbs. which is low end .357 Magnum ballistics and blows away the Remington.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
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Well, well. If it isn't my favorite Buffalo Bore salesman.
Sorry Chief, but those little boutique boxes are not as good a value as the Remington 50-count boxes, nor do BB's bullets expand as reliably as the tried and true Remington version, at least as far as informal testing with the standard velocity version is concerned. (Besides, aren't those Rim Rock bullets supposed to be SOFTER?)
I have loads of scientific data to show that the Remington FBI load penetrates a minimum of 12" and expands more often than not from a snub. Do you have any test data to support the "more MV/ME is better" theory? Not trying to be snarky, but I'm not buying into the hype. Real world terminal ballistics and scientific testing appeal to me more than big MV/ME numbers.
If it doesn't penetrate at least 12" and isn't a fairly robust expander, I think I'll just stick with my "clunky," proven Remingtons.
dogngun
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Yeah...It worked very well for all these years - no need to "fix" it...unless it's a sales gimick...
mark
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Well, well. If it isn't my favorite Buffalo Bore salesman.
Sorry Chief, but those little boutique boxes are not as good a value as the Remington 50-count boxes, nor do BB's bullets expand as reliably as the tried and true Remington version, at least as far as informal testing with the standard velocity version is concerned. (Besides, aren't those Rim Rock bullets supposed to be SOFTER?)
I have loads of scientific data to show that the Remington FBI load penetrates a minimum of 12" and expands more often than not from a snub. Do you have any test data to support the "more MV/ME is better" theory? Not trying to be snarky, but I'm not buying into the hype. Real world terminal ballistics and scientific testing appeal to me more than big MV/ME numbers.
If it doesn't penetrate at least 12" and isn't a fairly robust expander, I think I'll just stick with my "clunky," proven Remingtons.
Not bad-mouthing Remington's FBI load at all. It IS a reliable expander and has been around for many many years. Yes you are also correct that the Buffalo Bore 158 grain HP will not expand as much as the Remington will - tested them myself, but the BB does expand somewhat. To me shot placement is #1, Penetration is #2 and expansion is #3. I also agree that the Buffalo Bore ammo is costly - more than twice the price of the Remington, HOWEVER...... I also believe that the same weight slug moving out of my 2' Chief's Special at 200 fps faster will penetrate much better ( especially when winter clothing is worn ) and will mean much greater shocking (stopping) power. Penetration is needed to reach vital organs when heavy clothing is involved.
1025 ft/sec out of a 2" bbl. is low end .357 Magnum performance - and I don't think too many will argue that the .357 isn't much better than a 38 Special. Don't want to turn this into an p. match and that's why they make both I suppose. I just wanted to simply point out the advantages of the BB over the Big 3's offerings IF you like them.
Since I do not use them for regular plinking and target shooting the cost is not a major factor in which defense ammo I choose. For practice I hand load and thus the cost is irrelevant and I am not looking for a bargain when it comes to the cost for self defense ammunition - just the best I can get into my 2" M60.
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Oh by the way, just got off the phone with Remington and they confirmed that the "NEW HTP AMMO" in the 38 Special FBI load is the exact same ammo it has been and all that has changed is the packaging. The ballistics, bullet, powder, primers are identical to the R38S12 in the older packaging. Just thought some might be wondering.
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Hmm. Well at least they are still planning on including this old dog in there future line. That load takes freakin' souls!
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
That's good to hear. I'm an old-fashioned guy who likes stuff that has been working nicely for decades, like J-frames.
Hi, Chief. Before I continue, just so we're clear, I have nothing personal against ya. 
I've always opined that if someone can achieve solid hits with their chosen defensive ammo, it's just as important as terminal performance so long as they're honest enough to admit its shortcomings. If BB works great for you, then by all means stick with it. For me, having fired everything from target wadcutters all the way up to CorBon's screaming lightweights, the Remington FBI load is about as much as I can personally handle from a wee Chief's Special without wandering all over the target while still having the peace of mind knowing it's a proven performer.
I'm also of the opinion that sometimes, less really is more, and the best evidence of this can be found in the reduced recoil 00 buck or slug loads by Federal or Speer's quasi-Magnum .357 Gold Dot short barrel load which I'd trust over BB's iteration of the FBI load if my EDC were a Magnum J-frame.
At any rate, it's good to know the load is essentially unchanged per your conversation with Remington save for the modest increase in retained MV/ME. Heck, it's essentially the Express load for less, and I won't complain about that.
I've always opined that if someone can achieve solid hits with their chosen defensive ammo, it's just as important as terminal performance so long as they're honest enough to admit its shortcomings. If BB works great for you, then by all means stick with it. For me, having fired everything from target wadcutters all the way up to CorBon's screaming lightweights, the Remington FBI load is about as much as I can personally handle from a wee Chief's Special without wandering all over the target while still having the peace of mind knowing it's a proven performer.
I'm also of the opinion that sometimes, less really is more, and the best evidence of this can be found in the reduced recoil 00 buck or slug loads by Federal or Speer's quasi-Magnum .357 Gold Dot short barrel load which I'd trust over BB's iteration of the FBI load if my EDC were a Magnum J-frame.
At any rate, it's good to know the load is essentially unchanged per your conversation with Remington save for the modest increase in retained MV/ME. Heck, it's essentially the Express load for less, and I won't complain about that.
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CoMF:
I appreciate that and no offense of any type intended here either. I am glad to be able to have these discussions so others might learn from them - one way or the other. Civil and polite debates are always a positive thing IMHO. I don't expect you to change your mind, and I don't think I'll go back either, but I do respect other peoples opinions.
The Remington FBI load is OBVIOUSLY a winner by virtue of its longevity and sales. It would have never survived if it were a dog!
I used it for 25 years myself up until about 4 years ago when I started testing others brands and types of ammo. I especially focused on the 38 Special because that is what my daily carry is and so I went out and bought a Chronograph and started doing some testing.
A man who can place 5 38 Special Remingtons in the right place rapidly and accurately is far better off than a man who can't hit squat with a 44 magnum - no doubt. When NEW SHOOTERS ask me for my recommendation on carry ammo I always tell them to start with either the FBI - Rem's or the Speer Gold Dot. Not that I think they are better loads than the BB but I know for a fact the BB takes some getting used to before it should be carried! 5 shots sprayed all over everywhere except the intended target is useless.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the HEAVY +P BB load out of a 2" revolver is about what a low end .357 Magnum would do. According to Sanow and other FBI tests that I have read over the years the number one man stopper has always been the .357 Magnum and so if I can closely duplicate that, handle accurately and quickly from the 2" snubby why not do so? I can tell you (from many Chronograph results) there is no load anywhere from any manufacturer that makes a more consistent performing round than BB! If you have access to a Chronograph try it - seeing is believing. then do some penetration testing, some small game hunting and you will see the difference.
Again, if you feel completely satisfied, comfortable and confident that you are carrying the best you can, then you are doing the right thing and I would not want to change that. I do think the Rem-FBI load is very good.
Oh, and by the way as long as we are discussing the FBI load...... for some reason the Winchester Brand (same load configuration) runs about 90 - 100 feet per second slower out of my 2" Chief's Special than the Remingtons do, so I would stay away from them as defense loads. And by the way I like Winchester ammo - think it's very high quality but for some reason THEIR version of the FBI load is a lot slower than the Rem. is.
Regards,
Chief38
I appreciate that and no offense of any type intended here either. I am glad to be able to have these discussions so others might learn from them - one way or the other. Civil and polite debates are always a positive thing IMHO. I don't expect you to change your mind, and I don't think I'll go back either, but I do respect other peoples opinions.
The Remington FBI load is OBVIOUSLY a winner by virtue of its longevity and sales. It would have never survived if it were a dog!
I used it for 25 years myself up until about 4 years ago when I started testing others brands and types of ammo. I especially focused on the 38 Special because that is what my daily carry is and so I went out and bought a Chronograph and started doing some testing.
A man who can place 5 38 Special Remingtons in the right place rapidly and accurately is far better off than a man who can't hit squat with a 44 magnum - no doubt. When NEW SHOOTERS ask me for my recommendation on carry ammo I always tell them to start with either the FBI - Rem's or the Speer Gold Dot. Not that I think they are better loads than the BB but I know for a fact the BB takes some getting used to before it should be carried! 5 shots sprayed all over everywhere except the intended target is useless.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the HEAVY +P BB load out of a 2" revolver is about what a low end .357 Magnum would do. According to Sanow and other FBI tests that I have read over the years the number one man stopper has always been the .357 Magnum and so if I can closely duplicate that, handle accurately and quickly from the 2" snubby why not do so? I can tell you (from many Chronograph results) there is no load anywhere from any manufacturer that makes a more consistent performing round than BB! If you have access to a Chronograph try it - seeing is believing. then do some penetration testing, some small game hunting and you will see the difference.
Again, if you feel completely satisfied, comfortable and confident that you are carrying the best you can, then you are doing the right thing and I would not want to change that. I do think the Rem-FBI load is very good.
Oh, and by the way as long as we are discussing the FBI load...... for some reason the Winchester Brand (same load configuration) runs about 90 - 100 feet per second slower out of my 2" Chief's Special than the Remingtons do, so I would stay away from them as defense loads. And by the way I like Winchester ammo - think it's very high quality but for some reason THEIR version of the FBI load is a lot slower than the Rem. is.
Regards,
Chief38
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Chief,
It's not just you. The late Stephen A. Camp also noted in his own personal testing that Winchester's version of the FBI load chronoed slower and more inconsistently than the Remington version. If memory serves correctly, the X38SPD bullet also uses a harder alloy which has expansion issues at slower velocities, so I myself would be hesitant to use it in anything other than service length barrels of 4" or more.
It's definitely a testament to BB's quality control if their ammo gives consistent velocities, and I can see where the increased velocity would be of benefit in hunting. However, wasn't Marshall and Sanow's top pick in .357 Magnum always the 125 gr. (S)JHP by either Federal or Remington? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression they favored light for caliber bullets over heavier ones.
It's not just you. The late Stephen A. Camp also noted in his own personal testing that Winchester's version of the FBI load chronoed slower and more inconsistently than the Remington version. If memory serves correctly, the X38SPD bullet also uses a harder alloy which has expansion issues at slower velocities, so I myself would be hesitant to use it in anything other than service length barrels of 4" or more.
It's definitely a testament to BB's quality control if their ammo gives consistent velocities, and I can see where the increased velocity would be of benefit in hunting. However, wasn't Marshall and Sanow's top pick in .357 Magnum always the 125 gr. (S)JHP by either Federal or Remington? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression they favored light for caliber bullets over heavier ones.
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CoMF:
You are not wrong - it was the Federal 125 grain 357 Mag. SJHP that they rated No. 1 but that was before they fully understood the downside to the lightweight magnum loads (flame cutting and extreme muzzle flash), especially in K and J frames. I used to use the 125's and switched years ago to the 158 grainers to avoid some of these problems. The 158's are STILL quite good stoppers, almost as good as the 125's and there is less likely to be damage to the gun from them. I will gladly sacrifice a small loss in velocity for a gain in bullet weight.
If you are gonna stick with the FBI loads, the Rem's. are the best of the bunch from the Big 4 Company's (Rem. Win. CCI, Fed.).
By the way, the expansion tests on Youtube (at least the one I watched) was for the BB NON +P 158. The +P does expand more and more reliably. The expansion tests I have done have been informal backyard tests using wood, newspapers soaked in water, Phone directories and pails filled with water. I will not state that they are scientific, official or the best testing methods, but at least it gives me the opportunity to compare different load with the same test media. The Remington FBI load does expand more evenly and to a larger diameter, I just wish it had a bit more penetration than it currently has.
Let's hope neither one of us ever has to find out first hand how they work on people!
You are not wrong - it was the Federal 125 grain 357 Mag. SJHP that they rated No. 1 but that was before they fully understood the downside to the lightweight magnum loads (flame cutting and extreme muzzle flash), especially in K and J frames. I used to use the 125's and switched years ago to the 158 grainers to avoid some of these problems. The 158's are STILL quite good stoppers, almost as good as the 125's and there is less likely to be damage to the gun from them. I will gladly sacrifice a small loss in velocity for a gain in bullet weight.
If you are gonna stick with the FBI loads, the Rem's. are the best of the bunch from the Big 4 Company's (Rem. Win. CCI, Fed.).
By the way, the expansion tests on Youtube (at least the one I watched) was for the BB NON +P 158. The +P does expand more and more reliably. The expansion tests I have done have been informal backyard tests using wood, newspapers soaked in water, Phone directories and pails filled with water. I will not state that they are scientific, official or the best testing methods, but at least it gives me the opportunity to compare different load with the same test media. The Remington FBI load does expand more evenly and to a larger diameter, I just wish it had a bit more penetration than it currently has.
Let's hope neither one of us ever has to find out first hand how they work on people!
