twodog max
Member
That is a good question that I have no answer for.
Nickel Vs Brass Cases
- Thread starter AJ
- Start date
That is a good question that I have no answer for.
Being a bit of a nit-picker, even with carbide dies I lube the cases, doesn't hurt a thing and makes me feel better. I also clean the primer holes.
pantannojack
US Veteran
I like to remark on the random upturn of nickel brass the way I notice repeating serial #'s on dollar bills I get for change at the local watering trough. When the numbers peak my fancy I get a power ball ticket. Hasn't helped yet.
Don't confuse the symptom with the problem!!
I clean my empties first, then lightly lube them before sizing, and then clean the primer pockets. Even with carbide, a little lube is a good idea, and it eases the sizing job as well.
I've reloaded enough plated brass to find that I'm more likely to wear off the plating than have them split.
But, I am careful to select or modify my sizing dies so that the inside diameter is not more than a few thousandths less than the intended bullet diameter.
Most carbide dies seem to overly size the case. Have you ever noticed that those annoying splits always occur in the spot between the case head and the base of the bullet??
Besides the extra wear and tear on the empty cases, overly reduced cases discharge without the full benefit of support from the chamber wall. So, nickel plated or plain brass, they will be more prone to split when they blow out upon discharge. This is similar, but less serious, to firing a cartridge/gun combination with excess headspace.
You can buy adjustable lapping tools that will open up even a hard carbide die a couple thousandths of an inch.
PS: I've never seen a carbide die worn out from use. The failures I've seen have been cracked carbide rings from being dropped, or a failure of the epoxy used to glue the ring into the die body.
PS #2: If you doubt my observations about straight wall case splitting, consider nickel plated bottleneck cartridges.
If you have used these enough, you may have noticed that, despite their higher operating pressures, you almost never see these long case splits. Hmmm....
I clean my empties first, then lightly lube them before sizing, and then clean the primer pockets. Even with carbide, a little lube is a good idea, and it eases the sizing job as well.
I've reloaded enough plated brass to find that I'm more likely to wear off the plating than have them split.
But, I am careful to select or modify my sizing dies so that the inside diameter is not more than a few thousandths less than the intended bullet diameter.
Most carbide dies seem to overly size the case. Have you ever noticed that those annoying splits always occur in the spot between the case head and the base of the bullet??
Besides the extra wear and tear on the empty cases, overly reduced cases discharge without the full benefit of support from the chamber wall. So, nickel plated or plain brass, they will be more prone to split when they blow out upon discharge. This is similar, but less serious, to firing a cartridge/gun combination with excess headspace.
You can buy adjustable lapping tools that will open up even a hard carbide die a couple thousandths of an inch.
PS: I've never seen a carbide die worn out from use. The failures I've seen have been cracked carbide rings from being dropped, or a failure of the epoxy used to glue the ring into the die body.
PS #2: If you doubt my observations about straight wall case splitting, consider nickel plated bottleneck cartridges.
If you have used these enough, you may have noticed that, despite their higher operating pressures, you almost never see these long case splits. Hmmm....
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I have a bunch of once-fired Federal nickeled brass from Federal 357B 125 grain factory loads we fired until about 1990. When they finally start to crack or split (it takes several reloadings), I throw out that batch and dig out another. The relatively few brass cases I have do seem to 'work' more easily; my RCBS 38/357 carbide sizer/deprimer die is just fine since new purchase in July, 1976.
Life is good.
Life is good.
I only load full blown mags in nickle cases. 357 44 41s if I have them. 38s I load any and all even have a few from the 40s or earlier . 45 Auto any and all. I have some nickle 45s with hardly any nickle left and some hardly have readable headstamps. I am pitching them these days since I have so many. I honestly think the nickle is removed from the cases more by tumbling them than sizing. All my nickle rifle cases I give to a friend back east. His son likes to load them cause they are "pretty". Oh and when I load handgun cases I use carbide if they make em and I still lightly spray with spray lube of whatever brand I have. Easier to size and seems to work the cases a bit less...for my blow away ammo in 45 auto I use 5.4 gr 231...so mostly all the same pressure range revolver cases get lot of 231 but different weight bullets
David Sinko
Member
I have some R-P .45 Colt cases that I had bought new and after the first firing some of the nickel plating blew off in chunks. Some of it was peeling and I could grab it and peel off large pieces. R-P brass isn't what it used to be.
venomballistics
Member
I'm in my 50's now, and don't know of anyone who has worn out a carbide die. Some of the dies I'm using were inherited from my Dad and are over 40 years old and work fine.
I'm also sure I also have nickel and brass cases that are just as old and still in the rotation.
Thing I noticed about nickel cases is they tend to be sold with higher pressure defensive rounds, which I suppose is done since you would be carrying the rounds more and they don't tarnish like brass, although you really should be shooting the things to maintain proficiency, rotating through your inventory, instead of just carrying the things to the point they get tarnished
The nickel will be less ductile than the brass, something that causes a problem for me when reloading, where the minimum flare on the case mouth I like needs to be adjusted when switching between the two, but I'm guessing the pressure is what's causing the cracking.
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Have shot and reloaded countless nickel and brass case since the mid 70s. Prefer brass but some nickel cases get in the mix and they are sorted out and loaded seperatey. Have found nickel splits sooner than Most brass, however have sone Fed. nickel 38 Spl case that have been around 10 years?
As the carbide vs nickel issue, carbide is " harder than Chinese arithmetic" so nickel won't hurt dies.
As the carbide vs nickel issue, carbide is " harder than Chinese arithmetic" so nickel won't hurt dies.
Nickel brass
I have a custom-made revolver in 38 Super that will eject nickel brass with ease, but brass cases stick in all the chambers! This happens even when I'm shoot loads that are 1gr(NOT .1gr) below book min. load! I have tried everything to remedy this problem, but it still occurs! My final solution, buy nickel brass and shoot as much as I like!
jcelect
I have a custom-made revolver in 38 Super that will eject nickel brass with ease, but brass cases stick in all the chambers! This happens even when I'm shoot loads that are 1gr(NOT .1gr) below book min. load! I have tried everything to remedy this problem, but it still occurs! My final solution, buy nickel brass and shoot as much as I like!
jcelect
OP
AJ
US Veteran
Stupid question. Since it is custom made....did you asked the maker why? Did you try polishing the chambers? A lot of Model 17 owners have had problems with the chambers on those revolvers. Most polish them to get rid of the problem. I took a .22 MOP and some jewelers rouge to mine and viola it was fixed. Chuck the MOP on a section of cleaning rod into a drills. Load up the MOP with jewelers rouge and polish each chamber. Took me about 20 minutes as I was going slow. Revolver now chambers and ejects with no problems from any of the chambers.
venomballistics
Member
At one point, I plated some standard issue plain brass. You wouldn't think so, but there must be some metallurgical voodoo involved. This batch would split while the remaining source plain brass didn't.
This is far from being a deal breaker.
It's my go to for hostile environment ammo. Such as rounds that have to work after fermenting into the floorboards of ye olde battle wagon for a few years.
It holds up to this sort of abuse
Question
The red dot has been changed! This was built on a 629 frame.
jcelect
A very valid question! ! ! I bought the gun(cheap), not had it made, and had many other problems! Basically, the gun was built too tight in all aspects! I bought a ball type polisher from Brownell's and it helped a bunch, but I was afraid of removing too much material from the inside of the chambers. The gun now runs great for bowling pin shoots, including fast reloads, if I use nickel brass. Brass cases still stick but not as bad as before the work I done!
The red dot has been changed! This was built on a 629 frame.
jcelect
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Checking the periodic table, nickel is 28 on the chart, while tungsten is 74, so 2 1/2 times harder than nickel. Nickel cannot touch carbide.
Marksman
Member
Nickel brass............
The thickness of the plating is .0002" (two ten thousandths), that's the thickness of a particle of dust. As for lapping a carbide sizer die .002" #1 even with diamond compound you'd be lapping a long time. Increasing the I.D. of a carbide sizer that much, you may as well as not size. Lots of misinformation on this topic, as a retired Manufacturing Engineer I can tell you this to a certainty.
The thickness of the plating is .0002" (two ten thousandths), that's the thickness of a particle of dust. As for lapping a carbide sizer die .002" #1 even with diamond compound you'd be lapping a long time. Increasing the I.D. of a carbide sizer that much, you may as well as not size. Lots of misinformation on this topic, as a retired Manufacturing Engineer I can tell you this to a certainty.
I think you must mean something other than the periodic table. The atomic number isn't proportional to hardness. Elemental tungsten isn't the "carbide" used in dies. It's Tungsten Carbide.
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OP
AJ
US Veteran
A very valid question! ! ! I bought the gun(cheap), not had it made, and had many other problems! Basically, the gun was built too tight in all aspects! I bought a ball type polisher from Brownell's and it helped a bunch, but I was afraid of removing too much material from the inside of the chambers. The gun now runs great for bowling pin shoots, including fast reloads, if I use nickel brass. Brass cases still stick but not as bad as before the work I done!
The red dot has been changed! This was built on a 629 frame.
jcelect
Since the brass case still stick a bit, I would polish some more. Go slow and check often. Nice looking piece.
I dont have enough experience to add anything about reloadability or life, but I had a Browning Buckmark 22 that would feed nickel cases without fail, but would not feed brass cases worth a darn.
You are absolutely correct, not sure why I picked molecular weights compared to hardness?? The Mohs scale shows hardness of the elements and minerals. The Mohs hardness, from 1 to 10, is a measure of its relative resistance to scratching, measured by scratching the mineral against another substance of known hardness on the Mohs Hardness Scale Let's try this again. The Mohs scale for nickel is 4 and 9.0-9.5 for tungsten carbide. Brass is 3.
Let me add that it is said that only diamond will scratch tungsten carbide. Rockwell hardness is a more confusing hardness measure, since there are different tests in this standard. Rockwell B for brass is 65, for nickel is 86, and tungsten carbide is 90.
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Reminds me of Andy Griffith...
Barney ("inspecting" the ancient bank guard): Those bullets are GREEN!
Barney ("inspecting" the ancient bank guard): Those bullets are GREEN!
