NICS Question - Answered See Post 24

[quikdraw67]

Here's a question that would help me in the coming week.

I have a handgun coming in to a LGS this week.

I also have a rifle on layaway at another LGS.

I will pick up the pistol for sure on Saturday.

Depending on how things shake out, I could pick up the rifle as well.

The question is, do I have to go through 2 NICS checks? One shop is 10 minutes away from the other. Is the check valid for the day?

Or does it have to be done for each purchase?

You know, in case I go on a crime spree driving from Honesdale to Prompton LOL.

I rather not do 2 checks in 1 day.

Thank you in advance for the input.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Only way to not get a second check is to purchase two guns at the same time at the same shop. If you buy the pistol at your favorite LGS in the morning, and then go back to the same LGS in the afternoon and buy the rifle, you'll do a second NICS check . . .

 

[s&wchad]

You'll need to have two NICS checks done, unless you have a CPL and the BATF honors your States CPL in lieu of a background check. I also believe purchasing more than one firearm from the same dealer within one weeks time triggers a special report to the BATF.

In the past, Michigan CPL's were honored by the Fed's and no NICS checks were required if you had one. That changed after Michigan legalized pot. Apparently, our State doesn't adequately scrutinize permit holders for marijuana use.

 

[Muss Muggins]

. . . I also believe purchasing more than one firearm from the same dealer within one weeks time triggers a special report to the BATF. . .

It does. It might be ten business days, but regardless, the LGS where I rent my office space says that's his most often cited ding on his BATFE audits . . .

 

[Bladeswitcher]

Here's a question that would help me in the coming week.

I have a handgun coming in to a LGS this week.

I also have a rifle on layaway at another LGS . . .

The question is, do I have to go through 2 NICS checks? One shop is 10 minutes away from the other. Is the check valid for the day?

Each FFL is required to maintain a record of the transfers he/she does. A background check is part of that transfer process. Every dealer has to dot the t's and cross the i's on each and every transfer.

There is no place on the 4473 form for the dealer to write "It's OK, this customer got checked out across town." His record (the 4473) needs to show that he did his job.

As amazing as it might sound (and gun registration conspiracy theories aside), after 24 hours the only record of a NICS check that results in a PROCEED outcome is on the original paper 4473 form. The information contained on the 4473 exists at only one place in the world -- at the FFL's premises. There is no database that compiles or compares 4473s or NICS checks done at different FFLs.

 

[Bladeswitcher]

I also believe purchasing more than one firearm from the same dealer within one weeks time triggers a special report to the BATF . . .

The purchase of two or more handguns from a single FFL within five consecutive business days requires the FFL to submit a multiple sales form.

Also, multiple sales forms are required in four U.S./Mexico border states whenever a customer buys two or more semi-automatic/box magazine/centerfire caliber rifles within a five business day period.

A copy of the form gets faxed to the ATF and also to the chief local law enforcement agency. (I suspect most CLEOs toss the form in the trash.) The original form must be kept with the 4473 in the FFL's file. THe multiple sales form requires no action on the part of the buyer/customer and most folks don't even realize it will be done.


Reporting Multiple Firearms Sales | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives


ETA: The multiple sales don't have to occur as part of the same transaction. If a customer buys a handgun on Monday and then comes back in on Friday and transfers another handgun, the FFL must send in a form. I can tell you from personal experience, having your acquisition/disposition records computerized makes this process a whole lot easier. I would imagine a large volume FFL who keeps a paper A&D book would get himself in trouble with the ATF fairly easily.

 

[quikdraw67]

Thank you all for the info.

I'll have to decide how to handle it.

I'll probably pick up the pistol as planned on Saturday, and get the rifle the following weekend.

Funny thing is, I'm selling 2 rifles to the LGS where I'm picking up the pistol.

Common sense would say it's a wash, no check needed.

But common sense and gun laws seem to be mutually exclusive.

 

[mckenney99]

Each FFL is required to maintain a record of the transfers he/she does. A background check is part of that transfer process. Every dealer has to dot the t's and cross the i's on each and every transfer.

There is no place on the 4473 form for the dealer to write "It's OK, this customer got checked out across town." His record (the 4473) needs to show that he did his job.

As amazing as it might sound (and gun registration conspiracy theories aside), after 24 hours the only record of a NICS check that results in a PROCEED outcome is on the original paper 4473 form. The information contained on the 4473 exists at only one place in the world -- at the FFL's premises. There is no database that compiles or compares 4473s or NICS checks done at different FFLs.

I know BATFE publicly claims they keep no records of the checks made, but having been on the receiving end of at least 3 audits/checks, each time the auditor came in, she had a computer printout listing all of our submitted background checks. So that claim is BS, they do keep records. Their information does not contain the make, model or s/n of the firearms, as that information is only captured on the 4473. BATFE have gotten caught before and had their pp's smacked by congressional investigators, but they still do it because they can without any serious repercussions.

 

[Bladeswitcher]

I know BATFE publicly claims they keep no records of the checks made, but having been on the receiving end of at least 3 audits/checks, each time the auditor came in, she had a computer printout listing all of our submitted background checks. So that claim is BS, they do keep records. Their information does not contain the make, model or s/n of the firearms, as that information is only captured on the 4473. BATFE have gotten caught before and had their pp's smacked by congressional investigators, but they still do it because they can without any serious repercussions.

I don't even think their print-out has the customer's name.

When I had my FFL I had two inspections. Both times, they had a list of NICS check numbers from the past 90 days. As I recall, ALL they had was the NTN number, the date and the result. I don't remember their records showing the customer's name or any other details. As part of the audit, they did a spot check of my 4473s. They'd pick out a 4473 from the past 90 days and look to see if they had the corresponding NTN on their list and confirmed that they matched. As I recall, they checked fewer than a half dozen NTNs.

There is no requirement that an FFL maintains a searchable/retreivable list of NTN numbers. You record the NTN on the 4473 but there's no way to satisfy a request like: "Show me a 4473 that corresponds to NTN # X, Y, or Z." The ONLY way to do that would be to look at every 4473 until you found it.

 

[Bladeswitcher]

Thank you all for the info.

I'll have to decide how to handle it.

I'll probably pick up the pistol as planned on Saturday, and get the rifle the following weekend.

Funny thing is, I'm selling 2 rifles to the LGS where I'm picking up the pistol.

Common sense would say it's a wash, no check needed.

But common sense and gun laws seem to be mutually exclusive.

"How to handle it"? . . .

First, a rifle and a pistol would not trigger a multiple sales form. It has to be two or more pistols.

Secondly, they have to be from the same dealer. Two transfers from different dealers the same week would not trigger a multiple sales form.

Thirdly, what does it matter? If I was picking up ten handguns from a dealer I wouldn't think twice about the multiple sales form. OK, if I was reselling Jimenez pistols out of the trunk of my car, I might think twice about the ATF knowing I was buying multiple guns (I'm not doing that, btw) but otherwise, what do I care? Multiple sales forms are routine and not a big deal . . . assuming you're not "engaged in business" without a license.

Relax. Buying guns is not a crime. And every gun purchase is a needle in a haystack. They're not watching you that closely.

 

[JJEH]

"How to handle it"? . . .

First, a rifle and a pistol would not trigger a multiple sales form. It has to be two or more pistols.

Secondly, they have to be from the same dealer. Two transfers from different dealers the same week would not trigger a multiple sales form.

This is correct. Don't worry about two NICS in one day...

 

[bearman49709]

In the past, Michigan CPL's were honored by the Fed's and no NICS checks were required if you had one. That changed after Michigan legalized pot. Apparently, our State doesn't adequately scrutinize permit holders for marijuana use.

Marijuana had nothing to do with it.
If you read the letter from the ATF you'll see some sheriff's were not running the background check's so some felons and people with domestic violence convictions were able to get CPL's.

It only take's one bad apple to ruin it for everyone.

 

[jeffrefrig]

Yeah, what they said above. I was getting a gun locally here (PGH) and while I was waiting I found another interesting gun. He said if I wanted it they'd have to do the paperwork on it, too. I think he said if I bought them both at the same time, I'd have to fill out separate forms for each but I may have been able to just have one background check. Once they hit the GO button, you have to do it all over again. This was 5 years ago, I might have forgotten a detail or two, but I know they had to do the paperwork twice.

 

[sbrmike]

It is no big deal to buy multiple guns in the same day. The extra paperwork for multiple handguns is a requirement, but again no big deal. My friends and I go on gun buying trips; we hit all of the gun shops in 100 mile radius and buy whatever gun floats our boat at the time with no worry about buying three or four.

Now if you are gun trafficking, that is another ballgame. Buying 20 AR-15's in a day is going to draw some attention, and rightly so.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

When I recently bought that Glock out on Base, somewhere in the paperwork he asked me if I had bought a gun at the BX in the last 5 Days.

 

[s&wchad]

Marijuana had nothing to do with it.
If you read the letter from the ATF you'll see some sheriff's were not running the background check's so some felons and people with domestic violence convictions were able to get CPL's.

It only take's one bad apple to ruin it for everyone.

I did read the ATF letter. I also got information here:

ATF says MI firearm dealers must conduct background checks on everyone – even if they have a CPL

Not that I believe everything I read or hear on the news, but the timing and BATF rulings in other States that legalized pot causes me to believe it's true.

 

[LVSteve]

Marijuana had nothing to do with it.
If you read the letter from the ATF you'll see some sheriff's were not running the background check's so some felons and people with domestic violence convictions were able to get CPL's.

It only take's one bad apple to ruin it for everyone.

That's exactly what happened in NV some years back. Some of the rural sheriffs believed that fogging a spoon was sufficient.

 

[Twiki357]

I'm not going to say that this was right or wrong, but a few years ago at a local gun show I bought a handgun from one of the sellers when I first got there. When I was leaving a few hours later, I bought a second handgun from him. No 4473 for the second one. He said that he would just ad it to the 4473 that I filled out earlier.

As for the ATF records, I have purchased probably 14+ handguns from a local pawn shop over a 3 or 4 year period. During that time, I got to know the owner. During one of our conversations, he said that when he gets his ATF inspection, they have him do a printout of all his gun sales from his "automated bound book" since their last inspection, that they take with them. When I commented that they should not have that kind of information, he just said that – When they say jump, he says how high for fear of losing his FFL.

 

[pawngal]

I'm not going to say that this was right or wrong, but a few years ago at a local gun show I bought a handgun from one of the sellers when I first got there. When I was leaving a few hours later, I bought a second handgun from him. No 4473 for the second one. He said that he would just ad it to the 4473 that I filled out earlier..

That was OK at that time. Now the seller has to indicate on the 4473 the number of guns, serial#s and such BEFORE giving the form to the customer to complete theri portion.

 

[GT_80]

I also believe purchasing more than one firearm from the same dealer within one weeks time triggers a special report to the BATF.

Is that a state to state thing? If not, I may know why one of my NICS checks was delayed a few hours a couple months back... I frequently buy two guns in a week (several months apart usually when I do this) and often from the same shop...