nitro in load s&w DA frontier 44/40 61/2 inch barrel
- Thread starter jarmann
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In reviewing the Vihtavouri N340 Load data for .44 Special, and comparing it to the loading you mention - I would have to think the load you propose for .44-40 in your Smith & Wesson Top-Break .44, would be too strong of a Load.
Handgun reloading data | Loads for pistol calibers | Handloads | Pistol powders | Reload your own ammo - Vihtavuori
I will share a load that I have found to be safe and yet satisfactory, closely resembling the original In a Uberti repop and some original Colts .427 bullets are not too small. In a Uberti repop the .427 bullet works best, over 30grains of Olde Eyensford 3F/.060 wad with an Overall Cartidge Length of 1.580 using a Winchester Large Pistol Primer. You could easily subsititute 30grains of Swiss 3F and expect a cleaner ignition with slightly less fouling. You can also substitute any Large Pistol Primer, these things have such a hard primer stike there is rarely a problem with not getting hit hard enough.
Bryan Austin
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This statement is inaccurate.
Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder that is bulky. It should NEVER be confused with or labeled as a "weak powder" when it comes to burn rate or the pressures it produces.
9.3gr will fit into a 44-40 case with a 200gr bullet and produces 15,182psi, 4,000psi beyond the 11,000psi max., with velocities at a low 1,200fps from a carbine.
However, slower burning fast burning powders like Reloder 7 don't have enough time to fully burn when used in revolvers thus the pressures remain low with a case capacity load like black powder, as well as poor velocities.
ANY name brand commercially manufactured 44-40 cartridge is safe for any firearms chambered for it that is in good operating condition. The reason why modern 44-40 factory ammo is so @#$%^ weak for this very reason.
For some reason folks are not "stupid enough" to shoot hot 45 Colt loads and Hot 45-70 loads in weak action firearms but yet I guess folks are too stupid to know the difference when it comes to the 44-40 hot loads. Same rule applies.
Colt and most other revolver manufactured didn't "approve" smokeless powder loads in revolvers until 1909. Why? Know one knows for sure, all speculation...but I can assure you that the very thin cylinder walls are a hell of a lot weaker than any rifle's action.
By 1909, revolvers were using "normal" smokeless loads while Winchester's Model 92' rifle was using "High Velocity" factory loads since 1903.
Same rules apply today when it comes to loading 44-40 for use in revolvers vs rifles as it did in the 1920's and 1930's.
Sharp once wrote in his 1937 hand-loading manual...
" The 44-40 is capable of excellent performance when loaded properly for handgun use. If, however, one endeavors to combine loading for both handgun and rifle in this caliber, he is destined to meet with only mediocre success. As in all other dual-purpose cartridges, the factory loads are only a compromise at best. Smokeless-powder loading for handguns requires a much more rapid-burning type than loading for rifle use, as the short barrel must burn all the powder if satisfactory results are to be achieved. In addition, rifle cartridges can be loaded to a pressure of about 30,000 pounds in this caliber, whereas the same load in a revolver would be more or less disastrous."
For example:
If your goal is the best velocity from a revolver, keep the following in mind.
When the moon, stars and all of the planets line up perfect...
(20" carbine length testing barrel)
9.3gr of Trail Boss produced only 1,250fps at the highest pressure of 15,182psi while 26.5gr of Reloder 7 produced 1,432fps at a much lower 11,373psi.
There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat but sometimes history is the best policy.
Pistol powders have always been dangerous when improperly used in 44-40 handgun loads but are best for 44-40 handgun applications when black powder is not desired. Both Bullseye and Unique have been around since 1898 and 1900 of which both perform extremely well in the 44-40 handgun application.
On a side note, back around 1909 (ironic date?), the US Government's loading machines kept dropping an occasional "double charge" of Bullseye in their M1909 45 Colt loads. Most of the time they would blow the gun with the first shot. DuPont came up with a replacement powder called RSQ. One could fire six consecutive double charged 38 caliber loads before it got ugly. Being "rescued" by DuPont, Major K. K. V. Casey requested it be called "RSQ"......Resque! The powder was dropped two years later with the Model 1911.
44-40 smokeless powder transition years
44 Winchester "Two Peas In A Pod" - Smokeless Powders Transition Years
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So, this relates to the Revolver in question...how?
You assert that all and any High Velocity Semi-Jacketed or other .44-40 Rifle Cartridges of today, ought to be just fine for the OP's Revolver, since according to you, all present day 'Factory' Loaded .44-40 Cartridges are loaded to for use with any 1880s, 1890s S & W or other Black Powder era Revolver?
Or, am I missing something?
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Bryan Austin
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Yes, you are missing something. Go back and read my entire reply one more time. Read it slow, re-read it again till it sinks in.
No, I never said (or asserted) HV loads were good for revolvers. Where did I say that?
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Bryan Austin
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Notice the space between poorly written paragraphs. Typically means the subject changes or is slightly different. The HV remark was to show the huge, gigantic difference between what was available for use in revolvers vs what was available for use in strong action rifles.
I do hope you read the warning labels before you use stuff.
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You said it in your Post.
You said all and any present Factory .44-40 are safe in and made for use in, all and any Arms chambering them.
Bryan Austin
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That is correct, where is high velocity 44-40 loads mentioned regarding currently manufactured by name brand manufactures? This is what I was accused of stating.
Winchester? Remington? Federal?
Anyone?
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Bryan Austin
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Come to think of it who , currently, commercially manufactures 44-40 loads that exceed 11,300 psi?
Some interesting info here regarding the early Winchester 'HV' Cartridges -
44 Winchester "Two Peas In A Pod" - Understanding Winchester's 44-40 High Velocity Loads
44 Winchester "Two Peas In A Pod" - Understanding Winchester's 44-40 High Velocity Loads
Chamber Pressure
Well,
Actually, peak pressures will vary significantly between one firearm and the next. That's why published Time/Pressure/Curves really "must be" very specific regarding the "exact" firearm tested.
So when we look at PSI peak rating? Or old Term C.U.P. pressures? It's specific to one "specific" firearm only. Especially if we are talking about smokeless powder! I honestly think that here in lies where folks get into a lot of trouble playing around with smokeless loads and antique firearms. They see one charted Time/Psi curve and think its applicable to all firearms in that caliber. NO WAY!!!!!
If we take one cartridge that is loaded identical to the next and use that same cartridge in a 4" barrel Pistol? Maybe chamber pressure would be less than 11,000 PSI but that same exact cartridge used in a rifle? Absolutely no comparison. The peak pressure would be significantly greater, which also translates to a much increased velocity output. A time/pressure curve is specifically applied to only 1 specific firearm.
Even though smokeless powder is engineered to a specific application? If you change "anything" smokeless powder performance will change dramatically from the exact same cartridge.
This basic principle is also applicable to Black Powder. The longer the barrel, the more Peak pressure is generated and the faster the bullet will travel. Given the exact same cartridge, bullet, and powder type and load is used.
If you start adding variables like semi jacketed, full jacketed, hardened bullets and Black powder rifling? You're treading on thin ice with the antique! Pressure spikes will be extreme!
Murph
Well,
Actually, peak pressures will vary significantly between one firearm and the next. That's why published Time/Pressure/Curves really "must be" very specific regarding the "exact" firearm tested.
So when we look at PSI peak rating? Or old Term C.U.P. pressures? It's specific to one "specific" firearm only. Especially if we are talking about smokeless powder! I honestly think that here in lies where folks get into a lot of trouble playing around with smokeless loads and antique firearms. They see one charted Time/Psi curve and think its applicable to all firearms in that caliber. NO WAY!!!!!
If we take one cartridge that is loaded identical to the next and use that same cartridge in a 4" barrel Pistol? Maybe chamber pressure would be less than 11,000 PSI but that same exact cartridge used in a rifle? Absolutely no comparison. The peak pressure would be significantly greater, which also translates to a much increased velocity output. A time/pressure curve is specifically applied to only 1 specific firearm.
Even though smokeless powder is engineered to a specific application? If you change "anything" smokeless powder performance will change dramatically from the exact same cartridge.
This basic principle is also applicable to Black Powder. The longer the barrel, the more Peak pressure is generated and the faster the bullet will travel. Given the exact same cartridge, bullet, and powder type and load is used.
If you start adding variables like semi jacketed, full jacketed, hardened bullets and Black powder rifling? You're treading on thin ice with the antique! Pressure spikes will be extreme!
Murph
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