No FFL
- Thread starter REDEYE50
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Alpo
Member
In my opinion, they are being jerks.
In their opinion, they are covering their butts from the ATF.
But when it all boils down, it's simply their business. Refusing to accept a shipment from a non-FFL is no different than deciding not to sell Evil Black Rifles, or cowboy guns, in their store.
It's his store, and if he wishes to run it that way, that's fine. And I, personally, will shop elsewhere.
In their opinion, they are covering their butts from the ATF.
But when it all boils down, it's simply their business. Refusing to accept a shipment from a non-FFL is no different than deciding not to sell Evil Black Rifles, or cowboy guns, in their store.
It's his store, and if he wishes to run it that way, that's fine. And I, personally, will shop elsewhere.
I respect an FFL that runs their business the way they want - they have put a lot of time, money and energy to get it running.
What if the receiving FFL needs to return the firearm for some reason? He will not be able to send it directly to the private individual.
There are many FFL Dealers out there - choose the one that best fits your needs.
CATI1835
US Veteran
That is a legal requirement in some states.
greenmachine
Member
Some of my local dealers will accept shipments from an individual and some will not. I respect their rules.
The following is an excellent point however: "What if the receiving FFL needs to return the firearm for some reason? He will not be able to send it directly to the private individual."
After many online purchases I have only had to return one firearm and it had been shipped from a dealer.
The following is an excellent point however: "What if the receiving FFL needs to return the firearm for some reason? He will not be able to send it directly to the private individual."
After many online purchases I have only had to return one firearm and it had been shipped from a dealer.
Aticus
Member
If the firearm needs to be returned, then wouldn't it be up to the customer to make those arrangements? Any dispute will be between the buyer and the seller. The FFL holder will not be out anything.
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That's one reason I longer use the FFL that's closest to me. They won't accept from a private party. So now I drive 10 miles instead of 3.
They have every right to run their business as they see fit. I do not argue that point in the slightest. I also have the right to take my business where I choose. Their policy caused me to seek out their competitor who does accept from a private party, and I have used that place ever since.
They have every right to run their business as they see fit. I do not argue that point in the slightest. I also have the right to take my business where I choose. Their policy caused me to seek out their competitor who does accept from a private party, and I have used that place ever since.
finesse_r
Member
I don't think that is true. A FFL dealer can and often does return a person's gun to them after repair. Ruger and Smith & Wesson are FFL dealers and they certainly return guns directly to the owner. As long as the receiving FFL does not transfer the gun to the new owner, it should be legal.
While I respect any FFL dealer's choice in how he does business, my guess is they are just avoiding any possible encounter with the Feds, and they probably don't have a good understanding of the laws and regulations. In other words CYA when in doubt.
I have sent many guns as an individual and never had a problem, as long as the receiving FFL accepts shipments from individuals. I have also found about 30 percent of FFL dealers will not accept such shipments, so always make certain before shipping to one.
101Voodoo
Member
Same reason a lot of them won't accept a C&R FFL on a C&R firearm.
Not sure if they think its a guild, or they just resent non Class 01 FFL holders trading in guns.
Used to be a few shops around here that wouldn't accept transfers on new guns, since they felt you should buy it from them with their added mark-up. But enough people do painless transfers now, so that's kinda died out.
Not sure if they think its a guild, or they just resent non Class 01 FFL holders trading in guns.
Used to be a few shops around here that wouldn't accept transfers on new guns, since they felt you should buy it from them with their added mark-up. But enough people do painless transfers now, so that's kinda died out.
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Not legal for an FFL to return a firearm to a non-licensee sent to them for 'transfer'
It must go back to either an FFL for transfer to the nonlicensee, or tranfer directly by 4473/nics
'Transfer' is the key (even if the intended transfer to the new owner doesn't happen).
Same with firearms 'consigned for sale' to an FFL. If that firearm does not sell,,the gun to be returned to the original owner must be sent to an FFL in the original owners State for transfer there, or by face-to face by doing a 4473/nics check.
The gun 'transfered ownership when the original owner consigned it to the FFL. The FFL is transfering ownership once again from his FFL license back to that person.
Same paper shuffle when returning a pawned firearm to it's original owner.
You just can't hand it back,,It goes thru an FFL to the owner or the owner does a 4473/nics check to get their own gun back.
"Firearms shipped to FFLs for repair 'or any other lawful purpose' may be returned to the person from whom received
without transferring the firearm through an FFL in the recipient’s State of residence."
...'or any other lawful purpose',,is any other lawful purpose other than 'transfer' of the firearm.
Things such as research & collectors study, museum restoration work(duplication), investigation and legal expertise fall under this.
Repairs are kept in a separate log book. There is no 'acquired from' and 'sold to' sections because the gun is repaired for a customer. It (or a replacement)goes back to the same person it came from.
I had a gun that could not be repaired so they replaced it with a new one with different serial#. The manufacturer told me that they would ship it to my home for me to sign for via Fedx. I told them that I thought that wasn't legal & had them ship it to the lgs/ffl. Was I correct?
True as far as you go but a shipped gun intended for another recipient has not been transferred until it transfers ownership with the filling out of a 4473 and the receipt by the purchaser as the FFL is not a party to the sale. If that doesn't happen then no transfer has taken place and the firearm may be returned to the owner directly. A consignment is not analogous as in that case the owner IS transferring the firearm to the dealer for him to sell and it is specifically covered in ATF regulations.
No, they legally can ship it to you. The return of a repaired or replaced firearm is NOT a transfer according to law and ATF rulemaking. You should have listened to the manufacturer.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
A few problems can come up with firearms shipped by individuals to FFL holders:
1. Individual fails to provide adequate information on identity, address, etc, to satisfy BATFE record-keeping requirements.
2. Individual may provide false identity.
3. Firearm may be stolen or otherwise misappropriated.
I know a dealer who has several guns in his vault, received via UPS or FedEx without instructions or sufficient information to contact the sender, and no way to deliver to any intended recipient. He has also had several stolen guns show up, which are seized by police (either before delivery to an individual or from individuals after delivery).
Bottom line, FFL dealers can find themselves spending many hours dealing with questionable transactions, explaining to authorities, answering questions from law enforcement agencies, and dealing with irate people, when all he really wants to be doing is running his own business. Collecting a small fee to document a transfer between individuals is little compensation for days or weeks of trouble when a transaction goes south, or the potential loss of business reputation if word gets out that stolen guns have been traced to his business.
Accepting firearms shipments only from other licensees provides an additional layer of protection for the FFL holder.
1. Individual fails to provide adequate information on identity, address, etc, to satisfy BATFE record-keeping requirements.
2. Individual may provide false identity.
3. Firearm may be stolen or otherwise misappropriated.
I know a dealer who has several guns in his vault, received via UPS or FedEx without instructions or sufficient information to contact the sender, and no way to deliver to any intended recipient. He has also had several stolen guns show up, which are seized by police (either before delivery to an individual or from individuals after delivery).
Bottom line, FFL dealers can find themselves spending many hours dealing with questionable transactions, explaining to authorities, answering questions from law enforcement agencies, and dealing with irate people, when all he really wants to be doing is running his own business. Collecting a small fee to document a transfer between individuals is little compensation for days or weeks of trouble when a transaction goes south, or the potential loss of business reputation if word gets out that stolen guns have been traced to his business.
Accepting firearms shipments only from other licensees provides an additional layer of protection for the FFL holder.
Here in Michigan you have to take the one copy of the registration slip to the local pd then they send the copy that says Michigan State Police Copy to them. Was I still wrong for Michigan laws?
I had a replacement Sig(new serial #) mailed directly back to me, and a new replacement Smith sent back thru an FFL. The Sig was over 20 years ago, the Smith about 4 years ago, maybe the law changed? Or company policy?
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An FFL I use occasionally, has guns show up at his door with nothing but a gun inside, he then has to ask the buyer(if he knows who it is) to chase down the seller to provide a DL or other form of ID.
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