No more Hi Power

[WVSig]

Interestingly, there is almost always confusion about this issue. But never fear, it's NEVER your fault - the following from the Browning website:



© 2016 Browning

If that's what Browning puts out in public EVERYONE has the right to be confused.

Briefly, you have to understand that FN asked JMB to design this pistol pursuant to French Army requirements. So that starts the facts from the get-go. But the 1911 was still covered by patents that Colt bought from JMB so he had to create/design a gun that did not violate those patents. Right in the middle of this work Browning died. A couple of years later the patents expired and his FN teammate, Dieudonné Saive, was able to use various aspects of the 1911 design to complete the Hi-Power.

The best name is probably Browning-Saive Hi-Power but you know that won't work!

So, it's kind of like asking you who was the first President of the United States. Your answer will be George Washington - EVERYONE knows that. The fact that John Hanson was the first President of the US under the "Articles of Confederation" that preceded the US Constitution is generally overlooked and there are all sorts of arguments, pro and con. But we go with what works best!

And that's the name of that tune............

FN asked JMB to design the pistol around Saive's magazine design. JMB thought that there was no need for a high capacity magazine in a combat pistols.

JMB was a contractor to FN so he worked on the project that was presented to him. He submitted two designs one of which was accepted for further testing.

Browning makes the claims of JMB's design strictly for marketing purposes. It is not based in facts.

Your Presidential analogy does not fit IMHO. All one has to ask themselves to prove its negative truth value is, "Is this the pistol you shoot and call the BHP?"

If the answer is no, which it is then JMB did not design the pistol you are shooting.

 

[JayFramer]

Man, the Browning Hi-Power fans are always quick to correct, and show off their guns!!

Beaut of a gun. A real beaut, to be sure.

 

[Ross3914]

I've never saw a Sig "all steel" quote...........I own a couple and all the grip frames are aluminum.

I have an all stainless P220 5" match. It's a hefty piece.

Truth be told, I like the 4506 just a tad better though. I think they just fit my hand better.

Speaking about fitting the hand, the BHP is tops in that department. My current HP is an Argentine FM clone.

 

[625-7]

'68 T series in my collection. Beautiful handgun, fills the hand just right. Low profile service sights don't make for the best target shooting but runs as good as it looks. Makes for a great conversation piece in my shooting circle though

 

[saber58]

That is sad news. After shooting a borrowed one at a local range, I was hooked. I eventually bought one, WW2 Belgian made 640b (as the Germans designated it), and it now my favorite 9mm.

I agree that prices may not increase by much, considering they're already at the high end for a gun you'd shoot regularly. I do predict more of them are libel to become safe queens.


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[Wprovence]

You mean the Argentine Fabrica Milatar (FM), not the Belgian FN, right?

I've had both. The Argie was a nice gun, if not as well finished as the Belgian ones. But it had a military finish. The others were commercially blued.

My son found a MK III very effective in Iraq. When you can't carry 9 mm JHP ammo, the NATO M882 FMJ works, with good placement. But he uses a pistol far better than most soldiers.

I think he fired a Browning HP for the first time when he was about 13.

I've never owned a Hungarian FEG. I gather that they're good guns.

Yes I mean the FM one.


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[shawn mccarver]

FN asked JMB to design the pistol around Saive's magazine design. JMB thought that there was no need for a high capacity magazine in a combat pistols.

JMB was a contractor to FN so he worked on the project that was presented to him. He submitted two designs one of which was accepted for further testing.

Browning makes the claims of JMB's design strictly for marketing purposes. It is not based in facts.

Your Presidential analogy does not fit IMHO. All one has to ask themselves to prove its negative truth value is, "Is this the pistol you shoot and call the BHP?"

If the answer is no, which it is then JMB did not design the pistol you are shooting.

Although the JMB drawing does not LOOK like the P35 we have all come to know due mainly to the exterior surfaces of the slide, the drawing does show the Browning locking lugs in the slide and the linkless locking cam under the chamber of the barrel. It also shows the trigger with the op rod at the front of the frame that works on a lever in the slide which, in turn, works on the sear at the opposite end of the frame to release the hammer. JMB also put in the integral bushing, later taken out by Saive, then added back in to the design.

Those features alone make it Browning's baby.

Everyone acknowledges that Dieudonné Saive finished the P35, but to say it has more of Saive than Browning is on overstatement.

The two designs JMB created around Saive's double column magazine differed in that one was a locked breech, while the other was an unlocked breech.

Certainly, Saive modified and finished JMB's locked breech design, but it was nonetheless, JMB's design.

By the way, JMB's patent was licensed to FN by JMB's surviving son, Val Browning, so without that, Saive would have had no design at all on which to work.

The exterior appearance of the pistol in the drawing is not the basis on which the patents were granted, and it is obvious the the exterior appearance is one thing Saive changed.

That said, the external appearance has little to do with what is "under the hood," and the patent drawing shown clearly shows the main elements of the P35 insofar as its mechanical operation and method of locking is concerned. All JMB? No. JMB's last baby? Most certainly.

 

[Kurusu]

Although the JMB drawing does not LOOK like the P35 we have all come to know due mainly to the exterior surfaces of the slide, the drawing does show the Browning locking lugs in the slide and the linkless locking cam under the chamber of the barrel. It also shows the trigger with the op rod at the front of the frame that works on a lever in the slide which, in turn, works on the sear at the opposite end of the frame to release the hammer. JMB also put in the integral bushing, later taken out by Saive, then added back in to the design.

Those features alone make it Browning's baby.

Everyone acknowledges that Dieudonné Saive finished the P35, but to say it has more of Saive than Browning is on overstatement.

The two designs JMB created around Saive's double column magazine differed in that one was a locked breech, while the other was an unlocked breech.

Certainly, Saive modified and finished JMB's locked breech design, but it was nonetheless, JMB's design.

By the way, JMB's patent was licensed to FN by JMB's surviving son, Val Browning, so without that, Saive would have had no design at all on which to work.

The exterior appearance of the pistol in the drawing is not the basis on which the patents were granted, and it is obvious the the exterior appearance is one thing Saive changed.

That said, the external appearance has little to do with what is "under the hood," and the patent drawing shown clearly shows the main elements of the P35 insofar as its mechanical operation and method of locking is concerned. All JMB? No. JMB's last baby? Most certainly.

You noticed the pistol in the drawings is striker fired, right?

 

[Texas Star]

The Browning isn't perfect. In heavy use, they crack slides. The MK III was designed to lessen that possibility, and I'd sure buy one over an earlier gun.

But the damaged ones seem usually to have been fired A LOT and sometimes with hot SMG ammo, usually by specialist counter- terror troops and police. The British had a problem with that, but shot A LOT and their Radway Green-made 9 mm ammo was quite hot.

 

[Hehehmule]

God help us if someone on TV starts killing zombies with one. 3k HiPowers here we come.

 

[dobk63]

One of mine.

 

[Richard Simmons]

God help us if someone on TV starts killing zombies with one. 3k HiPowers here we come.

They did but it didn't seem to catch on like that Python did.

 

[WVSig]

You noticed the pistol in the drawings is striker fired, right?

There are a few other differences as well some are external some are not.

 

[Bat Guano]

There's a lot to like about the BHP.

I recently learned that a Turkish arms maker "Tisas" is making and importing a BHP clone, called the Regent BR9. (In Canada it's called the "Canuck", and there is a recent You Tube review on it.)

There was also a thread here on them: First Look Tisas Regent BR9 - Hi Power Clone - 1911Forum

Source: LKCI LLC, 5772 Bear Hollow Rd. SE, Newark, OH 43055; 740-763-0027. OTD price is apparently $454.55. They claim that they will have stainless models in stock in February @ $510.

I ordered one for a utility spare the other day. The same company has been importing GI type 1911s for a while now, and if these are the same quality they'll be pretty good.

 

[planojack]

My companion at the range today was my Inglis HiPower. With the shoulder stock, that 500 meter tangent sight makes it a great long range varmint gun. I might possibly be stretching that a little. It is a pleasure gun. Every collection should have one.

 

[WVSig]

Although the JMB drawing does not LOOK like the P35 we have all come to know due mainly to the exterior surfaces of the slide, the drawing does show the Browning locking lugs in the slide and the linkless locking cam under the chamber of the barrel. It also shows the trigger with the op rod at the front of the frame that works on a lever in the slide which, in turn, works on the sear at the opposite end of the frame to release the hammer. JMB also put in the integral bushing, later taken out by Saive, then added back in to the design.

Those features alone make it Browning's baby.

Everyone acknowledges that Dieudonné Saive finished the P35, but to say it has more of Saive than Browning is on overstatement.

The two designs JMB created around Saive's double column magazine differed in that one was a locked breech, while the other was an unlocked breech.

Certainly, Saive modified and finished JMB's locked breech design, but it was nonetheless, JMB's design.

By the way, JMB's patent was licensed to FN by JMB's surviving son, Val Browning, so without that, Saive would have had no design at all on which to work.

The exterior appearance of the pistol in the drawing is not the basis on which the patents were granted, and it is obvious the the exterior appearance is one thing Saive changed.

That said, the external appearance has little to do with what is "under the hood," and the patent drawing shown clearly shows the main elements of the P35 insofar as its mechanical operation and method of locking is concerned. All JMB? No. JMB's last baby? Most certainly.

The linkless locked breech design is used in BHP is the aspect of the gun that makes it a "Browning". It is pure genius. It can be found in most modern defensive caliber pistols. Guns like Glock, CZ, Sig, S&W, Walther etc... all use it. Besides blow back guns and 1911s it is hard to name a gun that does not use a variation of this design in modern pistols.

It is a major part of the evolution of pistol design. It was designed for and first produced in the BHP. That and the double stack magazine are what make the BHP what it is. There is no doubt about that but just about everything else was changed by Saive in order to make the pistol we shoot today. Almost no other aspect of the pistol was left in the same state as the 1927 patent.

As to Val authorizing its use he simply executed the contractually agreement that his father had with FN Herstal at the time of his death. It is not as if he could have taken the design to someone else for production. Without FN there was no contract to develop the gun for. There was no designer to finish the design or some one to produce it. Colt had already passed on its production and agreed to enforce the patent in its JMB territory per their agreement with FN and JMB. So that is really an irrelevant point. It is a red herring leading nowhere. It only detracts from the discussion at hand. IMHO.

I am in no way saying that JMB did not have major roll in developing the BHP I am and will continue to argue that his role is overshadowed by Saive in the real design and production of the pistol. Marketing and respect for "The Master" are the reasons that the gun bears JMBs name. Clearly YMMV

PS this is a great discussion. I hope others are enjoying it as much as I am.

 

[WVSig]

There's a lot to like about the BHP.

I recently learned that a Turkish arms maker "Tisas" is making and importing a BHP clone, called the Regent BR9. (In Canada it's called the "Canuck", and there is a recent You Tube review on it.)

There was also a thread here on them: First Look Tisas Regent BR9 - Hi Power Clone - 1911Forum

Source: LKCI LLC, 5772 Bear Hollow Rd. SE, Newark, OH 43055; 740-763-0027. OTD price is apparently $454.55. They claim that they will have stainless models in stock in February @ $510.

I ordered one for a utility spare the other day. The same company has been importing GI type 1911s for a while now, and if these are the same quality they'll be pretty good.

They are not 100% clones. The barrels are one piece and are not comptible with FN produced guns. There is no word yet on other small parts.

 

[WVSig]

The Browning isn't perfect. In heavy use, they crack slides. The MK III was designed to lessen that possibility, and I'd sure buy one over an earlier gun.

But the damaged ones seem usually to have been fired A LOT and sometimes with hot SMG ammo, usually by specialist counter- terror troops and police. The British had a problem with that, but shot A LOT and their Radway Green-made 9 mm ammo was quite hot.

If you can afford to shoot a BHP to slide or rail failure you can afford to buy more than one. Even with hot ammo you are talking about thousands and thousands of rounds costing more than the gun. IMHO

 

[Protected One]

I'm sorry to hear this news. My MkIII is the favorite of all my handguns, and the one I shoot best. I got this one in 2013 from a guy who was anxious to sell because of an impending divorce. I paid $250 for it with (2) mags, original wood grips, a set of Spegals, and a aluminum case.

 

[blaser1234]

Guys, doubt FN will ever produce Hi-Power again. Dwindling sales and high price in lieu of competition doomed it as well as perhaps time. FN like other firearms manufactures needs volume. It's military contracts dominate. Might sell tooling and license Hi-Power to other, but that seems dubious. Demand low.