Now.. Im not saying I deserve an award...

[vitamind3]

220 was used to get rid of the horizontal grooves from the factory cut job. As i mentioned, i finished it off with a fine stone. either way really, there is probably a 100 ways to do it "right". as long as the end result is good, im happy.

 

[vitamind3]

but Thomas H is right. If you take 220 to the sear you are going to ruin it. The heat treat is not deep enough. The gun will start to double. I can't say when,maybe 100 rds maybe 20,000 but using anything even an Arkansas white stone is too aggressive. Buy a spring kit or aftermarket trigger. There are no secret gunsmith tricks for the junk that consists of mil-spec ar triggers. Clipping the springs only shortens the life of what is left of the spring. Stock trigger groups are made as cheap as possible and are meant to be replaced as soon they show wear. That is the what you have to deal with when dealing with an ar. The government doesn't care if a couple of G.I.'s aren't happy with the trigger pull of their guns. The 15-22 is just a copy of the same cheap parts. I hope eveything works out for you but I doubt it will.

Ryan

realistically, a $450 plinker isnt really worth buying a aftermarket trigger for. that was the whole point of doing on the cheap. as far as reliability, it may fail in 100 rounds.. 20,000 rounds or maybe never. maybe the extractor will fail first. (that seems to be most likely from what im reading) keep in mind, this isnt a gun that you bet your life on. so, who cares if the sear needs to be replaced in 20,000 rounds. the $10 part will still be much cheaper than buying a aftermarket trigger group. likewise for the springs. more than likely, they wont fail any sooner than they would have, had the been left alone. but, IF they break, big deal. you replace them for $3 and go on your merry way. that just means you shoot the AK for the day, until you get the new parts!

 

[arizona98tj]

Thanks for taking the time to post the information and the photos. By the way, nice clear photos.

One thing I'll add to the thread.....is a reminder to everyone to be careful when working on a firearm. Some folks reading this thread are probably relatively new shooters.....and the 15-22 may even be their first firearm. (lucky them!)

In your last photo, you have a loaded magazine in the 15-22.....the safety is off.....and a flashlight is stuck into the trigger guard to prop the weapon up for the photo. I've no idea if you had a round chambered....I hope you didn't....that would be the last item needed for a ND.

Safe holidays to everyone!

 

[leas327]

I understand what you are wanting to do

I would also be hesitant to put a $200-$300 trigger in a $450 dollar gun. I am just posting what I know from experience. I've done the fifteen minute trigger job on one of my own guns to try and save money. The parts wear out fast. And your day at the range is ruined. It might be a good idea to get some replacement parts and keep them in your range bag. It is also a good idea to test fire the gun and make sure the springs still have enough power to set off the round. I know if you bend or cut too much a centerfire ar the gun will not have enough force to set off some surplus ammo.

Back to my warning. The gun will double or even go full auto when the sear wears out. And the BATFE considers any gun that fires more than one round with a pull of the trigger to be an automatic weapon. They consider such failures in these types of guns an illegal modification, and classify the gun an unregisterd automatic weapon. It is a felony, fines are steep and there is madatory jail time. It sounds far fetched and I have never heard of anyone being busted for this but it is the law. You are free to do whatever you want with your gun. I am just posting what a warning to let you and others know what could possibly happen.

 

[mikehoncho]

Back to my warning. The gun will double or even go full auto when the sear wears out. And the BATFE considers any gun that fires more than one round with a pull of the trigger to be an automatic weapon.

when you say it will double or go full auto, do you mean that the gun will continue to fire uncontrollably or would it stop firing after the trigger is released as in a conventional full auto? i've seen semi-auto shotguns go full auto due to malfunction and they emptied their mag with one pull of the trigger regardless of whether or not the trigger was depressed continuous.

i just got my 15-22 a few days ago and have already "magpulled" it out and was considering a 15 min trigger job.

great pics on the post by the way. right or wrong, it was a good description.

 

[Thomas_H]

If only the sear fails, it probably will not go full auto, but it could go bang twice for every trigger pull, once on the pull, and once on the release. If the disconnector fails, it can go full auto, but it's more likely to double or triple then misfire/misfeed. If both were to fail, then you could have a runaway situation. But again, the full auto fire will most likely fail after a small number of rounds because the hammer will follow the bolt and you will not get a clean hammer strike.

Of course modifying a firearm to this condition or knowingly allowing a firearm to remain in this condition is a felony. And there have been convictions of this very thing in the past 2 years.

 

[emjayw]

First Guinea Pig here..... No Problems!

I did the spring mods last night and left the sear alone. I took it to the range today and put another 300 rounds through it of mixed Federal 550 pack and 15-year-old Remington lead tip HV without a hitch! No doubles or any problems with FTF,FTE or such. Just a much nicer trigger pull which allowed me to shoot the center out of my target at 30 yards with a cheap 1X Tasco Red Dot. The gun is much nicer to shoot paper with now. Not dangerously "easy", but just a nicer feel to the trigger assembly. Again, I did NOT touch the sear surfaces as I could see these were beyond my expertise and frankly...the surface on the hammer was polished to a mirror surface already. There is still a bit of creep before hammer drop..but it's much nicer than before the mods. Thank you for a well written and well-meaning post. Mike in TX

 

[27 Beck]

ok, heres the write-up, and the obvious disclaimer: I am in no way shape or form responsible for what you do with your weapon. blah blah blah.. and so on.

heres what you need, although, feel free to replace any item/tools as you see fit. although, I will say, Im HOOKED on coconut coffee... I know it sounds really gay.. but damn, its good!

Great pics and info.

I'm still trying to figure out how you took the pics with the camera sitting on the work table.

 

[leas327]

Thomas H is right about the doubling

and full auto during a failure. I have seen a friends gun that would fire when you pulled the trigger and once again when you let off the trigger. It is a failed disconector that will cause a full auto situation.

Messing with the springs won't cause any of those types of failures. Just that when it is clipped or bent it is weakend and might not cause the hammer to fall hard/fast enough to set off the round. That is why companies like JP sell a speed hammer with their lowest spring kits. You need a lighter hammer with lighter springs to get reliable hammer strikes. I have installed just the basic lightend spring kit and got reliable 3.5# pulls. It is around $25 from Midway or Brownells. When you clip one leg off the spring you only have half the spring left to do all the work. It will work for a while but will fail. If you have already done it its no big deal, it will work. But I would go ahead and order a lighter replacment spring kit to have on hand when stuff starts to wear out. Those small parts are cheap and are nice to have around when you need them.
Ryan

 

[emjayw]

That is precisely why I was willing to clip and bend my springs in the first place. Replacements are cheaply and readily available if something doesn't work out. That is the beauty of S&W's design .... sticking with easily replaceable parts is/was a stroke of genius. Take a look inside the Colt/Umarex M4 and you'll see a world of difference. Want doubles or the occasional Triple? Try shooting that Federal "Auto-Match" 325 pack from Wal-Mart, I had a bunch of doubles with that junk. (With stock springs) Mike in TX

 

[braden182]

i didn't modify the springs at all, i just took a little off the sear on the hammer. I've done trigger jobs on basically every gun I have. I got my Remington 541-t down to 14 oz. on my friends gauge. I don't have a trigger gauge here but I know it breaks under 2 lbs.

 

[vitamind3]

I'm still trying to figure out how you took the pics with the camera sitting on the work table.

lol.. its MAGIC! smoke and mirrors!

Im glad that most of you have enjoyed the write-up, but I think that a couple things need to be cleared up. a few people have eluded to it, but i want to make the facts perfectly clear. clipping the hammer spring will only soften the blow of the hammer. in the case of the 15-22, if you do it as I did, you will not have any problems with a weak strike. the hammer is probably 200% of what it needs to be out of the factory.
bending the trigger spring will soften the pull. i cant see how (other than if you knick the spring) you will have any problems. obviously, anything could happen. its mechanical. machines break.
filing the sear, taking off 3 or 4 100ths of an inch is NOT going to make the gun double. all youre doing (or should be doing) is smoothing out the pull. you would have to take off some serious 'meat' in order for it to double or go FA. earlier, the figure of 20,000 rounds was mentioned. (not trying to pick on you, im just using that as an example) if you throw 20,000 rounds through this, or most any other gun, youre going to be replacing parts somewhere along the line anyway.
if this was a 'work' gun, i would definitely NOT be doing a home brew job. but, seeing as its a plinker, i'll take my chances.

Im not trying to say that you guys are wrong, you DO have a valid point. I just dont think its as big of a deal as its being made out to be. (assuming youre not taking a bunch of meat off the sear)

im waiting till it gets out of the single digits to do more shooting, but ive fired about 50 rounds off the back deck, with no problems.

 

[Thomas_H]

lol.. its MAGIC! smoke and mirrors!

Im glad that most of you have enjoyed the write-up, but I think that a couple things need to be cleared up. a few people have eluded to it, but i want to make the facts perfectly clear. clipping the hammer spring will only soften the blow of the hammer. in the case of the 15-22, if you do it as I did, you will not have any problems with a weak strike. the hammer is probably 200% of what it needs to be out of the factory.
bending the trigger spring will soften the pull. i cant see how (other than if you knick the spring) you will have any problems. obviously, anything could happen. its mechanical. machines break.
filing the sear, taking off 3 or 4 100ths of an inch is NOT going to make the gun double. all youre doing (or should be doing) is smoothing out the pull. you would have to take off some serious 'meat' in order for it to double or go FA. earlier, the figure of 20,000 rounds was mentioned. (not trying to pick on you, im just using that as an example) if you throw 20,000 rounds through this, or most any other gun, youre going to be replacing parts somewhere along the line anyway.
if this was a 'work' gun, i would definitely NOT be doing a home brew job. but, seeing as its a plinker, i'll take my chances.

Im not trying to say that you guys are wrong, you DO have a valid point. I just dont think its as big of a deal as its being made out to be. (assuming youre not taking a bunch of meat off the sear)

im waiting till it gets out of the single digits to do more shooting, but ive fired about 50 rounds off the back deck, with no problems.

You are absolutely right.

I only put the warning in there about breaking through the hardened portion of the part because I've seen some people file or stone the crap out of the hammer and sear trying to "tune" the trigger. In those situations, they removed far more than a few thousandths. And then because they were into the "soft" portion of the metal, the hammer sear had a catastrophic failure (chipped the edge off of the sear), or it would not reliably engage because they changed angles, or rounded the edges off. And this happened within a few hundered rounds after the work was completed. It's not hard to do a polish job to smooth out the creep, but it's also very easy to get carried away once you get started and really mess things up.

 

[pdmcghinnis]

One thing you might want to consider:

the "legs" of the hammer spring are designed to fit into the receiver in such a way so as to retain the trigger pin. When you cut that leg off, you removed 50 percent of your ability to retain that pin within the receiver. This often results in the pin "walking" or removing itself from the receiver as the gun is fired.

Gene Stoner designed that rifle so that every part more or less retains another part in some fashion (example: the receiver end plate retains the rear takedown detent spring) I haven't decided if this is a good thing or a bad thing.....

 

[Thomas_H]

In this case, it doesn't. The hammer and trigger pins only have the retaining groove on one end of the pin. So long as you get the pin in the right way.

 

[leas327]

I didn't say 20,000 rounds was an exact hard number that the gun would absolutly fail at that point. Everyone also seemed to overlook that the first part when I said 100 rounds could do the job. It could have been 5 rounds or a million. Those were just loose numbers I put out to make a point. That when you mess with the engaugement surfaces you can not be sure how much material you have taken off. Every home brewed job will be different. I do know how hard it is to hold that tiny surface absolutly flat on a piece of 220 sandpaper. When you move it back and forth you have to be very careful not to rock it front to back because it doesn't take much to sand off the corners. Same as if the paper isn't held down tight it tends to roll up on the edge a little when you push it back and forth. Once those edges are gone the part is pretty much junk. If you are going to stone on them you should use the proper stones like and orange ff stone to knock down tool marks and a white Arkansas to polish. Even then I would still be carful because it is still easy to not hold the face square to the stone.

BTW I think your pics and directions look great you started a very informative post. I just wanted to let people know about a potential risk they are taking by doing this kind of work. Not everyone knows about the shallow heat treat and the problems that can happen. I also know that these are plinking guns and not everything is a life or death situation. But sometimes a little information in the wrong hands can be dangerous.
Ryan

 

[chuck s]

The retention groove is only in one end of the trigger/hammer pin. And in the center. The pins are identical, same part number. One leg of the hammer spring secures the trigger pin, the other leg secures the auto-sear in the M16-series.

-- Chuck

 

[vitamind3]

I didn't say 20,000 rounds was an exact hard number that the gun would absolutly fail at that point. Everyone also seemed to overlook that the first part when I said 100 rounds could do the job. It could have been 5 rounds or a million. Those were just loose numbers I put out to make a point. That when you mess with the engaugement surfaces you can not be sure how much material you have taken off. Every home brewed job will be different. I do know how hard it is to hold that tiny surface absolutly flat on a piece of 220 sandpaper. When you move it back and forth you have to be very careful not to rock it front to back because it doesn't take much to sand off the corners. Same as if the paper isn't held down tight it tends to roll up on the edge a little when you push it back and forth. Once those edges are gone the part is pretty much junk. If you are going to stone on them you should use the proper stones like and orange ff stone to knock down tool marks and a white Arkansas to polish. Even then I would still be carful because it is still easy to not hold the face square to the stone.

BTW I think your pics and directions look great you started a very informative post. I just wanted to let people know about a potential risk they are taking by doing this kind of work. Not everyone knows about the shallow heat treat and the problems that can happen. I also know that these are plinking guns and not everything is a life or death situation. But sometimes a little information in the wrong hands can be dangerous.
Ryan

fair enough.

 

[vitamind3]

Hey V3, where you shooting at? I have been going to the FL in Manchvegas due the snow and single digits, if you ever get down that way, I would like to see how that trigger feels. Although, two squids(ex?) with guns, is usually a recipe for an epic fail!

hahaha, epic fail is right! lol I havnt been to the FL in a while, but im thinking it may be in order due to this friggin weather. whens the next time you plan on going? we should line something up.

i got out in 01, you?

 

[vitamind3]

damn.. they at least giving early ret.? I ended up doing SPECWAR, RM2 ... well... IT2 i guess.