NRA class too basic?

[GLK]

Hi all,

I thought I'd start a new thread in reference to this post I made yesterday.

I just took my third CCW class - the first two, for whatever reason, I just didn't apply for my CPL. Third time's a charm... I'm done applying, awaiting the gun board, and my CPL.

My problem is this...

Each time I've taken the NRA class, I'm amazed at how little those taking the class understand about guns.

I've been around guns/bows my whole life through hunting.

This last weekend I was shocked at those who passed the NRA class and are now allowed to apply for their CPL.

I would guess that 50% of this class didn't know how to load their firearm, let alone fire it... yet - they pass the class, get their certificate, and are now able to carry on the streets. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

Like I said in the other thread - I understand our 2A rights, but really? We can't ask for tighter restrictions from these classes? It really felt like - "show up for 8 hours today, shoot your gun, and you're qualified".

I dunno - maybe I'm overreacting? I get it - we shouldn't even have to take these classes, but... I'm just not comfortable with just anyone carrying. Especially if my family is in the area when the **** hits the fan.

Thanks - Glen

 

[wheelgun28]

It is minimal training, its just enough to teach the basics. Everyone does not pass this class.

Its not the job of the government to force you to take classes. If the person that is new to firearms feels that it was not enough they should take responsibility to take more classes or learn more about what they are doing. If they do not have the level of expertise need to handle, carry etc they will make mistakes and get in trouble. If you dont want to get in trouble learn more before you jump in deep. The class is a first step, not the last.

You dont get your drivers licence and take a 12 hour road trip the same day.

Just because you can do some thing does not mean you should

Its a slippery slope to force people to take a class before exercising a right.

I think that a mandatory 20 hr class should be needed to vote.

 

[Bill_inBouse]

Glen, I would agree with you. I have wondered these past few months just how many people went out thanks to Obama and purchased their first, handgun or rifle, with no real understanding of the ramifications.
I can only think there are thousands of people out there now who have absolutely no business owning a firearm but were scared (?) into buying one.
I understand it may be their "right" to own one......

 

[Hill_Country]

I agree in principal with what you're saying, but how much training is enough? For years everyone just carried a concealed weapon until someone decided that permits and training would be a good thing. In Texas the training consists of ten hours on the law and includes a qualification course that no one fails. Is that enough? Not for me, but I've only owned a gun for about fifty years and I enjoy learning more about them. But for 90% of the world, all they want is to legally carry the weapon they are going to carry anyway.

The bottom line is that now we get a permit to legalize something that shouldn't have been illegal in the first place. Its a slippery slope once we start mandating licensing and training and all the other things that make us "safer."

You're right - many/most people probably shouldn't even look at a gun. Some of the people at my local range scare the heck out of me. However, while I figure I have the right to offer assistance to them, I don't have the right to impose my opinions on them.

 

[GLK]

It is minimal training, its just enough to teach the basics. Everyone does not pass this class.

Wheel - like I said, I've now taken this boring-*** class 3 times. I've never seen anyone "fail" the class. However - I (if I were the instructor) would've failed about 50% of the class each time.

Maybe it is up to the instructors to be more discerning? We pay them $100 - they collect their money - everyone's happy?

Its not the job of the government to force you to take classes.

While I agree with you in principle - guess what? The gub'ment has made it their job.

If the person that is new to firearms feels that it was not enough they should take responsibility to take more classes or learn more about what they are doing. If they do not have the level of expertise need to handle, carry etc they will make mistakes and get in trouble. If you dont want to get in trouble learn more before you jump in deep. The class is a first step, not the last.

This is the basis of my whole thread - who gives a **** what someone feels about their own personal qualifications?

I am not comfortable handing out CPL's to people who "feel" they can handle a firearm. I've seen too many people getting certificates to apply that shouldn't even be on the range with me during these classes.

 

[GLK]

The bottom line is that now we get a permit to legalize something that shouldn't have been illegal in the first place. Its a slippery slope once we start mandating licensing and training and all the other things that make us "safer."

Yeah - I guess that quote, in essence, sums it up.

 

[Harrison]

It was said that it is not the job of the government to force you to take classes. Guess again. Today, our governments, either local, state or federal forces children to spend 12 years sitting in government school classrooms, where they may or may not get some sort of education. Of course the taxpayers pay for this enforced education of the sometimes unwilling or uneducatable. Why is it to much to ask that the government that controls and sets the standards for obtaining a concealed carry permit, require that prior to granting such a permit, the person be trained to meet minimum standards of firearm safety, firearm operation and show acceptable short range accuracy in the use of a firearm (pistol)?

 

[GLK]

I agree in principal with what you're saying, but how much training is enough?

Great question!

If the g'ment is going to insist - why can't we require more hours/classes?

It's too easy, and not enough instruction, for sally to show up to the NRA class on Saturday, apply for CPL on Monday, and go all Billy the kid on Tuesday.

If the g'ment is going to enforce classes, I believe EVERYONE will be better off if we make them do more than a one day course.

I dunno - just throwin' it around...

First course: gun mechanics - if you can't break it down and clean it - you're not allowed to shoot it.

Second course: The law - not even gonna go there. I am definitely a 2A supporter.

Third course: A specific number of hours on the range. I dunno - maybe a specific grouping grade, maybe not. But... I would suggest at least ? rounds before passing the class.

The point of this class is to make them shoot their weapon! Most who've come to these classes can't load their weapons, let alone shoot them!

I don't know... maybe I'm alone on this... I just don't agree with giving some of these idiots a CPL. I'm sure you've all seen some of these people in your own classes.

 

[PeterCartwright]

I just worked through the Personal Protection in the Home course again in the process of certifying to teach the class. I was impressed once more by the breadth of information covered in that eight hour time slot. It's not a SWAT course. The NRA actually suggests Basic Pistol as a pre-requisite for the class. Basic Pistol covers the manual of arms for each firearm in addition to instruction on how to safely clean and store the class member's firearm.

The primary purpose of Personal Protection in the Home is to provide the ABCs. It covers safe gun handling, legal and ethical responsibilities, and elementary shooting skills. The instructors with whom I've worked have a mini-shooting skills section in which class members fire 98 rounds in controlled drills which typically consume about two hours range time. We also try to plug class members into "continuing education" opportunities like IDPA which operate in adjacent counties. Bottom line: when a newby finishes the course, he or she should have enough basic knowledge to know how to move forward in their skill level. Shooting a handgun well-especially under stress- is a very perishable skill set in any case.

PC

 

[randy g]

I am a Mass State police and a NRA certified instructor. I will agree that to many people get pushed by the minimal requirements to get a permit. You can tell by the way they hold the gun like a dead animal that they just found in their basement. Or they will be the finger on trigger , crowd sweeper. I will not let anyone without complete understanding of and demonstration of safety, loading and unloading ,proper grip and marksmanship or general mechanics of each firearm to pass the class. I will do so by asking those peolpe to see me after class and explain to them that they need to set up some time with me on a one to one basis to get more familiar with these aspects. They have all taken this very well as they are not confident and comfortable with firearms as of yet. One time I spent 4 hours with a guy who is now a safe and fantastic shooter. I would rather spend some of my time than reading about student involed in a mishap. I feel its my duty and so should all who enable people to have a firearm in their lives.

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

NRA class too basic

As an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor, the NRA certified courses exceed the training requirements for a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit certification. If the instructors adhere to the NRA lesson plans and limit the students to four in a class, the first of the basic pistol courses is the 1st steps introduction to basic pistol. The class is posted for three hours but if the potential shooters are new to shooting, I will increase the time so each student will have the opportunity for hands on with his or her gun that will be used for self defense. The first basic rule is safety and the three safety rules are continuously repeated during and at the each of the lesson plans. I will have each student load and unload with a single dummy round in class one at a time so they can experience the hands on with each firearm they will use. Again, they will do this at the range, so there is no problem handling the gun and know how it functions. They will have the opportunity to load all of the chambers in a revolver and one at a time to ascertain the correct revolution of the cylinder for their revolver and if a semi-auto is used, the same applies with the magazine. Also, cartridges are explained how they are made and what constitutes a cartridge. Again, I will have them bench shoot their gun so they have a good understanding of trigger control and sight alignment in the classroom and the range. If I am satisfied with the classroom training and they are safe and knowledgeable, then I will move to the range. I do not use a target due to intimidation but use a nine inch pie plate so they can hit the plate anywhere in the nine inch circle at a distance of five to seven yards. If the student does not hit the pie plate at that distance, I will not and I emphasize will not issue a completion certificate. I will reschedule them for another class or have them sit on another class so they entire fee is not an issue. When the certificate is issued, that student will be proficient to operate his or gun safely and can shoot at a target and hit it at the above distance. There are many instructors that are out for the money and do not care about the safety nor the handling of the gun that the students need to understand. There is alot of material to cover in the three hour course. I know you all have heard of vicarious liability. I am not out for the money but rather instill some of the knowledge I love when it comes to teaching. I honostly believe the NRA courses are, by far, one of the best courses a person would want to pursue from the basics to the experience. There is a course for every level of experience. Happy Shooting.

Nick

 

[GLK]

I just worked through the Personal Protection in the Home course again in the process of certifying to teach the class. I was impressed once more by the breadth of information covered in that eight hour time slot. It's not a SWAT course.

Peter - all due respect but...

Anybody that's knows anything about weapons already knows everything that's taught in these classes. It's like repeating kindergarten.

If they don't know this stuff then are you saying that once they sit through this one day course that they "get it"?

The NRA actually suggests Basic Pistol as a pre-requisite for the class. Basic Pistol covers the manual of arms for each firearm in addition to instruction on how to safely clean and store the class member's firearm.

The NRA can "suggest" all they want. That doesn't mean that some of these people are going to do it before they carry on the streets.

The primary purpose of Personal Protection in the Home is to provide the ABCs. It covers safe gun handling, legal and ethical responsibilities, and elementary shooting skills. The instructors with whom I've worked have a mini-shooting skills section in which class members fire 98 rounds in controlled drills which typically consume about two hours range time. We also try to plug class members into "continuing education" opportunities like IDPA which operate in adjacent counties. Bottom line: when a newby finishes the course, he or she should have enough basic knowledge to know how to move forward in their skill level. Shooting a handgun well-especially under stress- is a very perishable skill set in any case.

PC

I get what you're saying - however...

Some of these people will let these suggestions go in one, and out the other - yet... they'll still be carrying (legally) and I'm saying:

I don't want them to be legally shooting, with eyes closed, while I'm out with my family.

Let me make this clear:

I understand and support our 2A rights - I just do not trust everyone to accept that responsibility responsibly. The basic NRA class does not go far enough to hand out CPL's to some of these morons.

 

[GLK]

I will not let anyone without complete understanding of and demonstration of safety, loading and unloading ,proper grip and marksmanship or general mechanics of each firearm to pass the class.

There we go...

RESPONSIBLE NRA Instructor Randy!

Unfortunately, that is not what is happening in all classes.

 

[GLK]

As an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor, the NRA certified courses exceed the training requirements for a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit certification. If the instructors adhere to the NRA lesson plans and limit the students to four in a class,

4 p/class? That's a good start. At least then the instructor has time to deal with each individually.

Nick -

I'm not gonna "quote" the rest of your response - I would suggest that what you do in a class of 25 new "gunnies" should take longer than one 8 hour course.

Great post - thanks.

 

[venomballistics]

you must consider a fair portion of those taking the class for a CPL.
you have some people living in formerly good neighborhoods who have observed a decline and now feel the need for a gun to get groceries.
Women who just want to walk their dogs in the park without being raped and little old ladies who wish to express their charm upon those whippersnappers running round the hood with their pants around their knees.
They never handled a gun before and one cannot expect them to be able to qualify as SWAT team members on the back side of just a few hours.
What the course does do is get their feet wet in the gun culture so that they don't blow extra holes in themselves and can at least put heavy metal in meat at close range while understanding the laws regarding self defense.
when I took mine I was one of only two who could effectively double tap and when the command to draw and fire came, I was the first one to fire and return my gun, safetied, to the holster awaiting the next command to fire.
in the course of fire I also had the floor plate of a 1911 mag fall out requiring a mag change without the benefit of a spring to clear it from the well. I did it with time to spare.
yeah Im probably what one might call an advanced marksman but I understand that very few have my background.

 

[GLK]

They never handled a gun before and one cannot expect them to be able to qualify as SWAT team members on the back side of just a few hours.
What the course does do is get their feet wet in the gun culture so that they don't blow extra holes in themselves and can at least put heavy metal in meat at close range while understanding the laws regarding self defense.

This (above) is exactly the point of me playing devil's advocate with this thread...

If - I'm out with my family, my argument is this:

The class does nothing more than "get their feet wet" and the heavy metal sinking into meat may well be my young daughters, wife, or myself...

Because - these well-intent people think they're doing the public a service by arming themselves - taking the class, applying for their CPL, carrying their gun... but -

Do not put the time in to understand their weapon, their reasoning, etc. - they carry and are armed... sure - ok by me.

But - is it the responsible thing to do? IMHO, NO - we do not hand out CPL's to any doofus that spends one day in an NRA home safety course that has the finances to purchase a weapon. Guess what? It happens every weekend and then every Monday morning at local Sheriff's offices around the country.

 

[tops]

First course: gun mechanics - if you can't break it down and clean it - you're not allowed to shoot it.

Second course: The law - not even gonna go there. I am definitely a 2A supporter.

Third course: A specific number of hours on the range. I dunno - maybe a specific grouping grade, maybe not. But... I would suggest at least ? rounds before passing the class.

first course. Why should anybody care how dirty my gun is and if something breaks I take it to a gunsmith. I don't do plumbing, electrical work, etc. so why do I need to know how to take apart my gun?
second course. shall not be infringed
third course. There are very few people that I hunt and shoot with because they don't meet my standards. I watch some of the programs on self defense and a lot of it is just slick salesmen selling their product and in the real world will get your butt killed. If people arn't proficient that is their problem. Who gets to set the standards?

 

[GLK]

If people arn't proficient that is their problem. Who gets to set the standards?

Only the prepared survive in the end.

 

[PeterCartwright]

I think the questions raised are valid and provide helpful opportunities for reflection, so let me stir the pot a bit. Every NRA certified instructor has the final say in who does and does not get a certificate. I commend those who commit to spend extra time with those who need it to assure basic firearms competency. That's surely a sensible standard. Some of you have related cases in your knowledge in which people who's skill level didn't reach that level were, nevertheless, issued concealed pistol licenses. I accept that premise. Isn't it remarkable, then, given the eight million concealed carriers across the country, that there have been so few problems with mishandling firearms.

Having been involved in the shooting world for a while, and particularly in competitive shooting, I've observed some of the most flagrant gun safety issues among those who epitomize the "familiarity breeds contempt" thing. I'd far sooner work with a new shooter who was totally wet behind the ears than with some dude who comes to class knowing it all. The former are better students and, frankly, more teachable on all levels, including safety. A fair number of these folks do in fact plug into opportunities like IDPA or other kinds of combat shooting classes. It's fun to watch some of these people-particularly the ladies-develop into formidable shooters.

Nearly twenty years ago, I was invited to participate in a FATS training program for LEOs. (I'm a clergy person, not a cop). A parishioner of mine was the state level LEO who had responsibility for conducting the training for state, county and local agencies in my area. The training provided (and embraced) by each agency was frighteningly apparent as I watched these people go through the program. Some were super. Others, not so much. I intend no disrespect for the law enforcement community, but if my hide were on the line, I'd rather have some of my attentive students doing the shooting than a few of the officers I observed in FATS.

It costs a lot of money and time to become truly proficient with a handgun. The friend from whom I took my most recent training expended 30K rounds in his own skill development in 2012. A fair amount of that was in high end instruction from nationally known folks. The work he's put into his skill set shows when he competes. I can't match my friend in time and treasure (and certainly not in skill!), but I accept the responsibility to work on shooting skills as an obligation of carrying a firearm. Practically speaking, the NRA's Personal Protection in the Home course has become a common entry point into this world, and I celebrate that.

PC

 

[venomballistics]

This (above) is exactly the point of me playing devil's advocate with this thread...

If - I'm out with my family, my argument is this:

The class does nothing more than "get their feet wet" and the heavy metal sinking into meat may well be my young daughters, wife, or myself...

Because - these well-intent people think they're doing the public a service by arming themselves - taking the class, applying for their CPL, carrying their gun... but -

Do not put the time in to understand their weapon, their reasoning, etc. - they carry and are armed... sure - ok by me.

But - is it the responsible thing to do? IMHO, NO - we do not hand out CPL's to any doofus that spends one day in an NRA home safety course that has the finances to purchase a weapon. Guess what? It happens every weekend and then every Monday morning at local Sheriff's offices around the country.

I liked my CCW class, and yes it was rather basic as gun handling goes and had far more content geared toward the legalities and rules of engagement as is prescribed by the state of Nebraska.
They also went on to state that the gun handling portion was rather basic and that more advanced concepts would not fit into the time allotted. Furthermore they urged the class to seek further training in the gun side of things.
if you saw some of the range setups my friends and I set up for kicks you'd know none of us would need further training and could probably train the instructors
as they graduate and leave, they have a chance and instruction to get a better chance. they have to start somewhere.