NYPD 1947 M&P

[serger]

I took some pictures of the M&P I got a week ago. Other than not having original grips(I'm pretty sure it was part of the refurb it had in 1974), the gun is in great shape.

more M&P pics

more M&P pics

 

[Absalom]

Have you e-mailed Robert Vivas yet to find out if he has the serial number and/or badge number in his records of M&Ps issued to NY patrolmen during that time?

NYPD Small Arms Page - Issue Guns & Markings - RM Vivas

 

[serger]

Yes Sir I did and he looked it up. The probationary policemen bought it on 2 FEB 1947. He was born Christmas Eve 1921 and passed away 28 JUL 1996 in Tampa.

I've contacted the seller to see if it was one of his relatives who sold the gun to them. Still waiting on that one.

BTW I think the M&P you got with the box and grip adapter was quite interesting.

And Once Again I screwed up and put this post in the wrong part of the forum according to manufacture date.(sorry admins)

 

[max]

I have one with serial #9034XX and it shipped in April of 47.

 

[DWalt]

On my list, I have one with a very close SN (about 200 higher) which shipped on 10/11/1946

 

[serger]

The folks who have been talking to me about this one are pretty sure it was part of a big batch that the NYPD got from Smith in OCT 46. I'll have to letter it and find out if possible.

 

[kbm6893]

Born 1921 and became a cop in 1947 means very likely served in the war and then came home to serve again as a cop. Hold onto that gun. I'm retired NYPD and I would love to have that one.

I assume the refurb included a re-blueing? Cause that gun never banged around in a holster. Who refurbed it and why? The cop owned the gun so it didn't go back to the dept.

 

[JP@AK]

serger
Nice pics. Nice to see them after our repeated exchanges about this gun. The extra marks on the cylinder are from factory repair work. The date on the frame indicates it was released by the factory after service in March, 1974. Perhaps it was refinished by them at that time.
As you know, this one is now in my database and almost certainly shipped in October, 1946. If I had to guess, I'd say it was on October 11. Several others with very close serial numbers went out to the NYPD on that day.

 

[DWalt]

Born 1921 and became a cop in 1947 means very likely served in the war and then came home to serve again as a cop.

Most every American male born in the early 1920s would have been inducted into some branch of military service during WWII, excluding some hardship cases, those with physical/mental disabilities (4-F), or performed some type of critical defense related and skilled job (machinist, scientist, engineer, etc.)

 

[serger]

Well I got a reply from the dealer I bought the M&P from. Here's his email to me.

"Hi xxxxx , I bought the gun from his son, who is a retired NYC police officer. He said when he started his career in 1972 S&W was running a special to refurbish a cops gun for $19.00. His own gun was still new so he sent in his fathers service revolver for the special, and kept it as a memento. I am glad someone who appreciates it got it. Best wishes and Merry Christmas."

So there it is full circle. I need to print out all the emails about this revolver as provenance so whenever it leaves me they can look at it and smile.

The bad thing is I wanted this as a shooter and now the wife's gonna be mad that I'm looking for another one.

 

[Road Rat]

The bad thing is I wanted this as a shooter and now the wife's gonna be mad that I'm looking for another one.

Psssst, don't tell the wife...

 

[Absalom]

That's great that you've been able to find that much background on your M&P. I think I'm stalled on mine until I get the letter in spring sometime.
In the meantime, I've been able to add a period companion to my gun, its biggest competitor from that time, a Colt Official Police. It was actually authorized for the NYPD, but as far as I can tell, not too many officers chose it over the M&P. This one shipped in 1951, not too long after my M&P, to Allentown, PA, one of 20 actually factory-stamped with a number for the local PD. There are some details I still have to research.
Interestingly, both revolvers came with an adapter. However, while the officer who owned the M&P spent quite some time and effort whittling away around the edges of the Mershon adapter to achieve a perfect fit to the grip frame, the later Pachmayr adapter (Pachmayr bought Mershon around 1958) on the department-owned OP shows no such work, and the adapter is uncomfortable and actually splintered off at the bottom; I ended up removing it.

 

[rjb1]

That "too big" grip adapter for the OP Colt might be for a Colt New Service (bigger grip).
I might be interested in the adapter if it's for sale.

 

[JSR III]

I bought the gun from his son, who is a retired NYC police officer.

WOW, his son is LEO too and he didn't keep Dad's gun? There's not enough money in the world to get me to part with my dad's guns......

 

[Absalom]

That "too big" grip adapter for the OP Colt might be for a Colt New Service (bigger grip).
I might be interested in the adapter if it's for sale.

Appreciate the suggestion, but it's a size 3M, which according to a Pachmayr sizing chart I found in an old thread is the right size for the OP; the New Service needs a size 4.

 

[kbm6893]

WOW, his son is LEO too and he didn't keep Dad's gun? There's not enough money in the world to get me to part with my dad's guns......

I was thinking the same but some people aren't gun enthusiasts. Even cops. My uncle came on in the late 60's. He did 30 years before he pulled the plug. Gave me his model 10. Wasn't such a gun guy and at the time his son was having drug issues and he didn't want the gun in the house. A few years later we were at a family event and he causally asked about the gun. Told him it was still in my safe and I hadnt shot it in a while. He responded "yeah. It's a good gun. Now that your cousin is sober I'm thinking I should get a gun for the house". I said that was a good idea and left it at that.

When I got home, I called an FFL near him and shipped the gun. When it arrived I called my uncle and told him to go get his gun. He was so happy. Told me I didn't need to do that but I insisted.

Cops back then were more likely to get in a shooting than now. My uncle had been in a few shootings and killed one guy with that model 10. Now it's back where it belongs.

 

[serger]

Now that I know, I wonder just what a mid 1970's refurbishment package consisted of. I know 19 bucks was about 83 gallons of gas. So with gas being 3 dollars a gallon or so right now that would be about a 250.00 fix.

 

[RM Vivas]

The 11OCT46 500

I see a few references to a large single shipment of guns to NYCPD in October of 1946.

I have one of the guns from this shipment and have dug through my notes and correspondence and thought I'd chime in.

On 11 October 1946 the New York City Police Department acquired 500 Military & Police revolvers from S&W. All the revolvers were in .38 Special, had 4-inch barrels, were blued and had square Magna stocks. They will letter as NYCPD, Equipment Bureau, 400 Broome Street (you serious dinosaurs from pre-1972 will remember that address), NY, NY. The guns were ---picked up--- by the department, NOT shipped.

Worth noting how the original letter says 'shipped' but follow-up letter says 'picked-up'. I've seen this a few times; I suspect that when Mr. Jinks goes into the records he gets the basic info and stops there, digging only deeper of the customer specifically asks for more info.

I don't believe this is the largest single purchase by NYCPD but it is definitely near the top of the list.

Immediate post-war classes were huge and frequent. I can't recall the exact number, but 1,200 new officers in one year would not be far off. Might even be low.

In addition to needing to outfit the new guys, every guy who came on during the war and got a poorly finished Commando or Victory also wanted to upgrade.

I've been in the gun room at the Equipment Bureau and I can tell you that 500 of any gun in one place outside the factory or the military is a rare and beautiful thing. Steel shelves all the way around the room with stacks and stacks of boxed guns. Different makes and flavors. Tucked into the corners, old guns that never sold. Want a 3 inch 1968 vintage M36 NIB never shot outside the factory? They had them until late 90's; still sold them at the 1968 price too!

 

[serger]

Mr. Vivas,

In your digging around did you find a start and stop serial number for that shipment on the off chance they were sequential?

(Thanks again for your help).

 

[federali]

Great pix and great story. Enjoy your new family member.

 

[RM Vivas]

Mr. Vivas,

In your digging around did you find a start and stop serial number for that shipment on the off chance they were sequential?

(Thanks again for your help).

I did not. However in the period 12OCT46 through 19OCT46 (one week) the department sold more than 700 guns!!!

In looking at the book I see that all guns sold up to and including 11OCT46 are in one type of handwriting and those sold on and after 12OCT46 are in a different handwriting.

The way the records were kept, when the guns came in they were written one gun per line in the ledger book. When the cop bought his gun, they wrote his particulars on the same line next to the serial number.

What I see here is that on 12OCT46, someone sat down and logged in a sh!tload of new guns. I'd wager a pretty fair accounting of serial numbers from the group of 500 could be postulated by just checking the handwriting (and no, I'm not doing that!).

 

[RM Vivas]

Mr. Vivas,

In your digging around did you find a start and stop serial number for that shipment on the off chance they were sequential?

(Thanks again for your help).

Looks like mainly 842xxx thru 848xxx.

 

[kbm6893]

I see a few references to a large single shipment of guns to NYCPD in October of 1946.

I have one of the guns from this shipment and have dug through my notes and correspondence and thought I'd chime in.

On 11 October 1946 the New York City Police Department acquired 500 Military & Police revolvers from S&W. All the revolvers were in .38 Special, had 4-inch barrels, were blued and had square Magna stocks. They will letter as NYCPD, Equipment Bureau, 400 Broome Street (you serious dinosaurs from pre-1972 will remember that address), NY, NY. The guns were ---picked up--- by the department, NOT shipped.

Worth noting how the original letter says 'shipped' but follow-up letter says 'picked-up'. I've seen this a few times; I suspect that when Mr. Jinks goes into the records he gets the basic info and stops there, digging only deeper of the customer specifically asks for more info.

I don't believe this is the largest single purchase by NYCPD but it is definitely near the top of the list.

Immediate post-war classes were huge and frequent. I can't recall the exact number, but 1,200 new officers in one year would not be far off. Might even be low.

In addition to needing to outfit the new guys, every guy who came on during the war and got a poorly finished Commando or Victory also wanted to upgrade.

I've been in the gun room at the Equipment Bureau and I can tell you that 500 of any gun in one place outside the factory or the military is a rare and beautiful thing. Steel shelves all the way around the room with stacks and stacks of boxed guns. Different makes and flavors. Tucked into the corners, old guns that never sold. Want a 3 inch 1968 vintage M36 NIB never shot outside the factory? They had them until late 90's; still sold them at the 1968 price too!

I never knew you could buy old guns from the equipment section. Must have kept that a secret from regular rank and file guys, cause I would have swooped in there on a regular basis!

 

[JSR III]

On Blue Bloods the other night, Danny Reagans wife bought a gun for protection. Her brother-in-law walked in a short time later. It appeared to be represented as a regular gun shop. Is that the way its done today?

 

[wheelgun28]

I don't watch the show but if you're a sworn officer with a badge and ID in New York. You can go to any gun shop and buy what you want and walk out with it. They dont have any of the other paperwork that the state requires.

This does makes some difficulties when retiring...

 

[kbm6893]

I don't watch the show but if you're a sworn officer with a badge and ID in New York. You can go to any gun shop and buy what you want and walk out with it. They dont have any of the other paperwork that the state requires.

This does makes some difficulties when retiring...

Only a couple of gunshops still in NYC. One was right near headquarters. But it is true a cop walks into a shop and walks out with the gun. He has to bring the gun to his command and add it to his 10 Card, which was a list of all the commands and guns he owned.

When you retire it depends on the county you live in as each has their own method of adding guns to your permit. Orange County NY is the most annoying. You buy the gun but it stays at the store. You take the receipt to the county headquarters and show you bought the gun. Then you wait until a judge signs off on the addition and they mail you a purchase document. When you get it you take it to the store and pick up the gun.

 

[RM Vivas]

Back when 10 Cads were actual cards (I suspect now its computerized) I knew guys who had so many guns that their 10 Card were stapled together accordion-style. One fellow had one that could easily span the width of a desk!

I was wondering who would b first to bring up 10 Cards.

Only a couple of gunshops still in NYC. One was right near headquarters. But it is true a cop walks into a shop and walks out with the gun. He has to bring the gun to his command and add it to his 10 Card, which was a list of all the commands and guns he owned.

When you retire it depends on the county you live in as each has their own method of adding guns to your permit. Orange County NY is the most annoying. You buy the gun but it stays at the store. You take the receipt to the county headquarters and show you bought the gun. Then you wait until a judge signs off on the addition and they mail you a purchase document. When you get it you take it to the store and pick up the gun.

 

[kbm6893]

Back when 10 Cads were actual cards (I suspect now its computerized) I knew guys who had so many guns that their 10 Card were stapled together accordion-style. One fellow had one that could easily span the width of a desk!

I was wondering who would b first to bring up 10 Cards.

Yeah. I had 2 cards. And they were just stapled together and jammed into a card box behind the desk. I wouldn't be shocked if the job still used the actual cards. They're slow to change and a 10 card isn't very high on the list of things that need changing.