NYPD revolver leather

[squidsix]

There have been many cases where a suspect was hit with multiple unsurvivable shots and lived for minutes to do more harm. This is not exactly the topic at hand.
The holster I saw a lot of in NYS (NOT New York City) was the basketweave thumb break Bucheimer holster with the two dump poushes. I spent my childhood next door to our town's only full-time cop, and he told me this was the same for every officer he knew.

 

[dave williams]

Great thread.

Lefty, have you ever thought about a holster book?

Dave Williams

 

[kbm6893]

I would like to maqke a couple of points which I am sure you are going to take issue with.

I was taught the term "New York Reload" came from carrying a second revolver and this practice was actually encouraged by the department. I don't know the circumstances of Officer Gadell's death it appears from your post that he was not carrying a second gun.

Shooting at a suspect 41 times with only 2 lethal hits is poor marksmanship. I don't care how you want to spin it no caliber or bullet style is going to make up for lousy marksmanship. Nor do I believe it is fair to cast all the blame on the department. Every officer has the opportunity to practice shooting when they are off duty.

The NY reload was encouraged, but some cops didn't carry two guns. Some cops couldn't afford the second gun. Even if he had it, he'd ben fumbling to load that second gun 3 seconds later then if he only had one. The issue that caused his death wasn't lack of ammunition, but speed of reloading. his revolver was found next to him, cylinder open, and one or two rounds in the cylinder, with the rest of the loose rounds spilled onto the floor.

As for the poor marksmanship, they hit him 19 times out of 41, nearly 50%. Two rounds proved fatal. While we are all entitled to our opinion, one educated opinion is worth more than 1000 non-educated ones. And unless you have been in a real shootout, and in the conditions that these guys were in (not ready to fire when the poop hit the fan), you can boast all you want about your stellar marks at Blackwater, but it means nothing.

If you do a search for the Diallo shooting, you'll see the whole story, but the short version is this: Diallo was approached by 4 plain clothes anti-crime officers because he fit the description of a serial rapist. he ducks into an unlit vestibule at the approach of the cops. One officer climbs the 3 steps to stop and question him. He asks for ID. Diallo turns with a black wallet in his hand. The officer yells "GUN!" and fires one shot, while stepping back. He falls down the steps and breaks his tailbone. His 3 partners believ him to be shot, and they fire. The rounds richocett of the brick and blow out the car windows. The "ear-witnesses" testify it was over in less than 6 seconds.

Now, how many will you fire if you think you're about to die? And how will your marksmanship be?

 

[18DAI]

I remember our old mossback instuctor drilling us on reloading our revolvers. He paced back and forth behind us bellowing; "When is your revolver loaded? WHEN THERE IS ONE ROUND IN IT!!"

Made sense, then and now. Regards 18DAI

 

[oldafsp]

Before speedloader, we used belt loop slides on our gear...

I got real good at pulling 2 at a time and loading them..I still practice that move today.

I carry a speed strip for my 638...only I have six instead of five on it.

You never know...1 round may make the difference.

 

[fdnyretired]

Some guys carried speedloaders before Gadell was killed, even though they were not permitted. They did allow them after that though.

Most younger guys couldn't afford a second gun.

Reloading loose bullets with someone yelling at you, is alot different then someone SHOOTING at you.

Unless you have been in a shoot out, second guessing is easy.

If there was a situation where I heard a shot, and saw my partner go down... You bet your a** I would be unloading my weapon too.

By the way, there have been plenty of officers who have had their revolvers pulled from their broken in, worn, loosened up, open top JAYPEE type holsters, by bad guys looking to do bad things.

 

[wheelgun28]

Heres one that I think dates to the mid 1960s

and the gun was carried by a NYPD officer starting in 1946

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Great thread.

Lefty, have you ever thought about a holster book?

Dave Williams

Dave;
I have and it's "in the works". Probably publish next year...at least that's the plan, but that's only a guess.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

I don't mean to drift off the subject of this thread, but since it has already been mentioned, the New York Reload has as long as I remember, been understood to mean a back up gun, in cop parlance.

The suggestion that some cops couldn't "afford" a second gun, accounting for why they were only carrying the service revolver, is pretty subjective. In most cases, some cops, young or old, hairbags or rookies just weren't gun guys or suffered the notion that they would never need a back up gun. There were also the guys who were just complacent.

The majority of "agressive" policemen I have worked with generally carried two weapons, because they couldn't "afford" not to.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[jimmyj]

Swivel Hosters:
Chasing a BG on foot- one hand holding the holstered weapon down and the other hand holding the uniform hat on your head.
Jordan style Border Patrol Holster carried on a Jordan style river gun belt.
Used though out my service except the last 10 years when the Agency issued Sig P-229 with SSIII holsters

 

[charlie sherrill]

We had a "desk jockey" choose a new holster design for our department back in 1984. He chose a high ride thumb break holster because it was easier to get in and out of a chair and was more comfortable to wear around the office. Myself and several other street officers complained but the holster remained. It was awkward when drawing to fire as the hammer of the model 686 was almost touching your armpit. We later learned as the holsters started to break in that your duty revolver would frequently fall out of the holster during physical activity. More complaints to no avail.

New Years Eve 1984. Several officers, including my wife Jackie who was a Detective Sergeant, were attempting to arrest a struggling child molester. They had him face down on the ground and when they rolled him over he was holding one of the officer's model 686. Unknown to the officer it had fallen out of his holster. The first shot went through Jackie's heart, the second literly parted the hair of the officer who had lost the weapon, and the third went wild as the remaining officers finally managed to restrain the molester.

I later sued the maker of the holster. The desk jockey was lined up to testify against me but didn't have to as they settled out of court. I raised my kids and put them through college with the settlement. The type of holster does really matter.

 

[kbm6893]

Wow, Charlie. Sorry for your loss. It's amazing that some administrator, who very often has no street time (if he even was a cop) is the one to set policy. The input of street cop's is rarely considered.

 

[cjtraining]

My wife and I are retired sergeants. She was a vice and narcotics sergeant and I was an IA sergeant. I can only imagine your loss and sorrow. Some police administrators are quite competent, most wouldn't make a pimple on a good sergeant's rear end.

 

[sheriffoconee]

Charlie's story is why I do my best to let the people who USE the gear pick the gear.....

 

[jimmyj]

DESK BOUND COMMANDOS: is there really a need for them?
IMHO these DIPS are those who could not made it in patrol!

** Charlie: did you consider suing the administrator who insisted on keeping the holsters??

 

[captbahbah]

The NYC Dept of Correction used the same holster. Officers assigned to the Transportation Division used the swivel version. The draw as I remember it: grasp the bottom of the holster with your support hand while you gripped the gun and wedged your shooting hand thumb into the leather, then lift the gun out. All done as you stepped left and crouched. It was a simple design with no snaps, no canting the gun, etc. The good old days.

 

[shawn mccarver]

When the NYPD still had revolvers in wide spread service, they used an unusual open top holster. I was wondering if any of the NYPD guys on here had any comments on this rig and if anyone has any pictures of NYPD revolver leather worn by members of service?

The maker of the Jay-Pee brand of leather goods is Courtlandt Boot Jack Co., 3334 Prince Street Flushing, NY 11354. Although they do not appear to have much of a web presence, they sent me a catalog a few years ago. Their web address is: http://www.jaypeepoliceproducts.com/

The NYPD holster used to be made for both the garrison belt (1 3/4") and for the Sam Browne Belt (2 1/4"). It could be had in swivel also, if the customer desired.

I do not know whether Jay-Pee is still making this holster now as NYPD has fewer revolvers on the street with each passing year. I did not see it on their web site, however, I cannot imagine it ever being completely out of production. Sort of like the Jordan River holster over at Don Hume. It is not in the catalog, but they make a run every so often.