NYPD

[jumbeaux]

I was wondering if there is a definitive study by the NYPD concerning the number of rounds fired in a gunfight by a Patrol Officer since the transition to Semiauto verses Revolvers ? Is the "magazine dump" now taught in the Academy & in advanced training ? Possibly retired NYPD Officers might chime in. When Moby Dick was a minnow I served in the USN and served many times armed. In training we were taught the 2 shots center mass rule, stop and then if required an additional round or rounds. Just wondering...

rick

 

[mikerjf]

I was wondering if there is a definitive study by the NYPD concerning the number of rounds fired in a gunfight by a Patrol Officer since the transition to Semiauto verses Revolvers ? Is the "magazine dump" now taught in the Academy & in advanced training ? Possibly retired NYPD Officers might chime in. When Moby Dick was a minnow I served in the USN and served many times armed. In training we were taught the 2 shots center mass rule, stop and then if required an additional round or rounds. Just wondering...

rick

I read that “two shots center of mass, stop and then inquire”…

 

[Kinman]

Halt, Dung Lai, Halt Dung Lai, Halt Dung Lai...Right

 

[jumbeaux]

di di mau

 

[Doug M.]

Remember Tuco's dictum.

I doubt they are teaching mag dumps.

 

[Faulkner]

"Magazine dump" LE training is pretty much a internet myth.

It's usually inadequate training that results in reported magazine dumps.

 

[ImDrRich]

All NYPD issued firearms have 12 pound triggers. Imagine what that does to accuracy - and don't forget the twice a year report to the range to qualify. Good Grief!

 

[4506517]

Most common law enforcement firearms training doesn't have a prescribed number of rounds to fire at a threat. You are, generally speaking, taught to fire "until the threat stops". Not "shoot to kill". I would think that as every incident is unique, so are the number of rounds fired.

 

[1Celticfozzie]

NYPD puts out an annual use of force/firearm discharge report. Goes back to 2011 on the city website. Discharge report

 

[Kiwi cop]

A police involved shooting here in Kiwiland several years ago. The officer said he fired 3 or 4 rounds, he was not certain. A check of the mag in the Glock found 14 rounds missing. Standard 17 round load.

Our Glocks have the NY trigger assembly, 8 pounds and a bit mushy, certainly not crisp like my 1911’s or mid ‘90’s Tanfoglio P 19 CZ75 clone.

I really need to get cracking on a Canik review. It has really changed my mind on striker fired pistols.

 

[jumbeaux]

"Magazine dump" LE training is pretty much a internet myth.

It's usually inadequate training that results in reported magazine dumps.

I need to rephrase my question...I was wondering if the number of shots fired during a confrontation increased after the NYPD transitioned from Revolvers to Semiauto Pistols ? If so, what is that average number now ? I am a huge supporter of all LE ! My question arises from a recent conversation with a retired large city LE Sgt. who entered LE back in the Revolver Days (not NYPD) & retired in the Semiauto ie Glock Days. He indicated that the Academies (at least regional) taught shoot until the perp is no longer a treat. Great advice but he believed it has led to excessive rounds expended. God Bless you all !

rick

 

[WR Moore]

All NYPD issued firearms have 12 pound triggers. Imagine what that does to accuracy - and don't forget the twice a year report to the range to qualify. Good Grief!

There are two NY Glock trigger systems: NY1, 8lbs and NY2, 12lbs. Not sure which NYPD uses, but a few years back NYPD was considering going with the stock Glock trigger. Be interesting to find out if they switched. Wonder what other brands are current options?

 

[tripledipper]

There are no NYPD old timers left to answer questions like this. The new ones probably have never even shot a revolver. The ranks belong to a whole new crew and many of them are leaving for other LE Agencies.

 

[Doug M.]

Most common law enforcement firearms training doesn't have a prescribed number of rounds to fire at a threat. You are, generally speaking, taught to fire "until the threat stops". Not "shoot to kill". I would think that as every incident is unique, so are the number of rounds fired.

*
And a lot of the commentary/criticism of such does not take into account (because of ignorance/stupidity) that the time between effectively stopping the threat and perceiving that can allow for 5 or more additional shots. 2-3 aimed shots per second is not unreasonable to expect.

 

[WR Moore]

Not to mention that people in the real world don't behave like actors (get knocked flat) when they get shot.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

Most common law enforcement firearms training doesn't have a prescribed number of rounds to fire at a threat. You are, generally speaking, taught to fire "until the threat stops". Not "shoot to kill". I would think that as every incident is unique, so are the number of rounds fired.

This is what we were taught at the police academy. "Shoot to stop" and to keep firing until the threat was neutralized.
During training we were showed a photogrpah of a perp who was on PCP and took a point blank range shot to the face from a 44 magnum...perp was still able to jump two fences and run about a block before dropping. The photo was rather graphic but suffice to say he didn't have much of a head left.
So much for any stopping power arguements.....

 

[Legendarylawman]

"Stop the threat" from the academy when I went throught. M&P 9mm. 52 rounds, should be able to hit something...

Carl

 

[LVSteve]

This is what we were taught at the police academy. "Shoot to stop" and to keep firing until the threat was neutralized.
During training we were showed a photogrpah of a perp who was on PCP and took a point blank range shot to the face from a 44 magnum...perp was still able to jump two fences and run about a block before dropping. The photo was rather graphic but suffice to say he didn't have much of a head left.
So much for any stopping power arguements.....

Drugs make a mockery of all the gel tests and the resulting perception of effectiveness. I'm darned sure drugs were a major factor in the various sandboxes when it came to the apparent ineffectiveness of 5.56 NATO. A jihadist high on heroin and so full of opioid painkillers he hasn't taken a dump in 10 days does not react to being shot the same way as the average perp on the street.

 

[WR Moore]

Doesn't have to involve drugs, grim determination can work well. Platt & Mattox had clean tox screens*, so did the felon the the Gramins incident. That particular felon took 14 230 gr .45 Gold Dots, including hits to the liver, right kidney, both lungs and the heart. 3 head shots finally turned him off. And that's just off the top of my head.

I've seen some autopsy photos and summaries that are frightening when mated to video/reports.

*Platt was bleeding out internally from an artery damaged/severed by the "bad bullet that stopped short".

 

[Doug M.]

Pat Rogers had a few descriptions based on LE shootings he had seen or studied. One of the most interesting was that involving a bad guy who took as 12 gauge slug and ran a significant distance. He also described some of his own experiences in VietNam with motivated opponents.

Opioid users can be a problem, but users of concentrated stimulants (think meth and crack) will be. Some hallucinogenic drug users, likewise.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

A police involved shooting here in Kiwiland several years ago. The officer said he fired 3 or 4 rounds, he was not certain. A check of the mag in the Glock found 14 rounds missing. Standard 17 round load.

That is not uncommon.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

If everyone puts it in a greater perspective like I do. God decides whose lights are turned out forever.

All you can do is get Professional Training. Bad guys size up their victims and Walter Mitty is first pick and they avoid John Wick.

 

[1Celticfozzie]

While I agree with Gods decision making abilities I do think that training tips the scales. As a former LE firearms instructor you see guys who train constantly and those are the guys you want with you in a fight. But you also see the opposite side of the spectrum.

 

[NYPDS&W]

NYPD was taught fire 3 rounds, evaluate your target. That was with the 9 mm which I was assigned in 1994 through 2005. They no longer have NY Triggers on NYPD pistols. They are the standard Glock trigger pull now and have been for the last few years. On duty it’s the Glock 19 or 17(15 round magazine). Heard it’s down to the Sig 365 for off duty as Glock no longer makes the Glock 26. As per a guy who just graduated.

 

[AJ]

In training we were taught the 2 shots center mass rule, stop and then if required an additional round or rounds. Just wondering...

rick

Almost 40 years ago I was assigned as a Cadre to Navy Security at Naval Station Long Beach, Ca. We taught the "Failure To Stop" drill. Two rounds to the chest and if the target had not fallen to put the third to the head.

 

[ultra45]

There are two NY Glock trigger systems: NY1, 8lbs and NY2, 12lbs. Not sure which NYPD uses, but a few years back NYPD was considering going with the stock Glock trigger. Be interesting to find out if they switched. Wonder what other brands are current options?

Yes they did, but only for new recruits. It started several years ago. Those of us already “On The Job” are not authorized to change to original configuration.

Additionally the Job authorized the GLOCK17, but with only 15 rounds. The Job had GLOCK produce factory 15 round magazines specifically for those guns. You can get a rip if caught by inspections if found with 17 rounders. Not sure if they will drop the 17 fro a G49. Welcome to NY!

 

[David Sinko]

I got to use a FATS machine exactly one time in my career. One scenario was a guy who came out of a car and drew a handgun. I shot him at least 10 times without missing any of the shots and he was still on his feet. The instructor stopped the scenario and asked me why I shot him so many times. I replied that the threat was still on his feet and not stopped. I don't know if this was the answer that the instructor wanted to hear or if I was supposed to fire two shots, lower my pistol and then reevaluate. For the record I had also been taught Tap, Rack, Ready and NOT Tap, Rack, Bang while clearing a stoppage. I always got the distinct impression that the assailant was to be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[WR Moore]

The feature of the FATS that I found most useful was the ability to track muzzle motion. Poor shot placement was often the result of yanking the trigger. Being able to track the muzzle would prove to the doubters that yes, they did yank the trigger. Also ended the no-I-didn't, yes-you-did arguments.

 

[AJ]

I got to use a FATS machine exactly one time in my career. One scenario was a guy who came out of a car and drew a handgun. I shot him at least 10 times without missing any of the shots and he was still on his feet. The instructor stopped the scenario and asked me why I shot him so many times. I replied that the threat was still on his feet and not stopped. I don't know if this was the answer that the instructor wanted to hear or if I was supposed to fire two shots, lower my pistol and then reevaluate. For the record I had also been taught Tap, Rack, Ready and NOT Tap, Rack, Bang while clearing a stoppage. I always got the distinct impression that the assailant was to be given the benefit of the doubt.

The feature of the FATS that I found most useful was the ability to track muzzle motion. Poor shot placement was often the result of yanking the trigger. Being able to track the muzzle would prove to the doubters that yes, they did yank the trigger. Also ended the no-I-didn't, yes-you-did arguments.

When I was Stationed in Pittsburgh as staff for the USMC 2nd MP Company, we had a FATS. Had it set up for rifle and pistol scenarios. The City of Pittsburgh PD did not have one. However, they let us use their pistol range and we let them use our FATS.

We learned Tap, Rack, Bang in Battalion Schools as part of the Security Force Battalion. Our courses of fire were designed by Col. Jeff Cooper.

 

[Doug M.]

The problem with Tap Rack Ready is that the only reason for an immediate action malfunction drill is that you have had a malfunction while actively fighting. Words matter and the priority of life is clear - offender well-being is the lowest priority. The offender had the chance that mattered - they could have complied and surrendered as the law mandates.