Observations from the dark side

[ripvanwinkle]

About 2 1/2 years ago I purchased a pistol that was a highly regarded accurate pistol. I started a journal and began recording bullets, powders, and so on. I used the very best loading techniques I knew to get consistency from cartridge to cartridge and batch to batch. I worked up loads from different bullet manufactures and different weights. I tested each with two and sometimes three different powders, and bench rest shot them to the best of my ability at fifteen yards. I now see a light at the end of this tunnel. My results, all the 115 grain bullets- round nose, hollow point, flat point it didn't matter grouped best at the same velocity. Of course, some were tighter than others but the best I could get from that cartridge/powder combination. I did not have a chronograph so I used only published data. Now the surprise was when I went up to heaver bullets 124 and 135, the accuracy/velocity stayed almost the same. Within 50 fps. Disclaimer:: these are the results I got, your mileage may vary! (and probably will)

 

[noylj]

Did you repeat groups to determine consistency?
15 yards is a bit short for accuracy. 25 yards is usually better and for real accurate handguns, 50 yards should be used. At 15 yards and in, most of the group is down to you rather than the pistol or load.
Bullseye shooters appear to have settled generally for 115gn JHPs and, usually, loads well above mid-range. They also are trending to 30:1 twist rates from the std 12:1 to 16:1.
Still, I have not gotten near what almost any good .45 Auto can give me in terms of accuracy.
PS: velocity in a manual is only very loosely related to what you will get in your gun with your components, but I do agree that there is often a velocity where a gun is most accurate.

 

[ripvanwinkle]

Oh yes I did follow up groups. And in larger batches. I started at 30 yards but dropped down to 15. Now that I have loads I am comfortable with phase 2 will be 30 and ultimately 50 yards.. And, a chronograph may be in the future. Noylj, thanks for the tip on twist rates, I have started following a bullseye forum but not got that info yet!

 

[Nevada Ed]

In my C9 shooting 115gr Extreme plated bullets from low to high
I have a 310fps difference.

In the 124gr plated I have a 233fps difference.
My 147gr loads have a 207fps difference.

However they all are accurate at or just above their starting loads
and most can get accuracy at a 98% loading.
For some reason a full blown load does not do well in my C9
except for the Factory 115gr +P GD loading.

I did notice that seven out of nine loads were Sub-Sonic, though.
Later.

 

[fredj338]

You say they are the same but some were better. So which is it? Most of the time one or more bullet & powder combo will shoot markedly better than most others. What is your benchmark for accuracy? Is it 1" @ 15yds, 2", 3"?? In every caliber I reload for, which is a lot, several diff guns, I can find 2-3 best loads that shoot measurably better than the rest. I consider 1" groups markedly better than 2" groups @ 15yds.

 

[rwsmith]

I didn't kee such meticulous records...

...but If I want an accurate load, in any of my guns (that matter) the heavy, slow bullet wins out. Besides each shot being more accurate the reduction in recoil makes it a LOT better and easier to make good follow up shots.

 

[WR Moore]

...but If I want an accurate load, in any of my guns (that matter) the heavy, slow bullet wins out. Besides each shot being more accurate the reduction in recoil makes it a LOT better and easier to make good follow up shots.

You can take that too far. Decades ago I had some factory produced 210 gr SWC .45 at ~710 f/s. It may have been exceptional from a machine rest, but in my hands, it didn't shoot as well as my handloads. Decided to try something and pulled some bullets and reloaded them over my powder charges for (presumably-no chrono) higher velocity. The recoil was greater. The groups shrank markedly. The problem was barrel dwell time. I wibbled and wobbled more with the slower bullet and it blew the groups.

 

[gwpercle]

I have also noticed that some accurate and highly regarded guns do well with most loads . Some of course being a little more than another but overall, accurate with whatever ammo is used.

Then there is the not so highly regarded guns, they have the one pet load they will shoot accurately and pretty much nothing else...these are the guns that respond to all the load testing.

I have a model 94 , 30-30 (not a highly regarded target rifle) that will group one load into an inch, nothing else comes close. It has to be that bullet, that one powder and that exact charge or it's more a small pattern .

Do not sell or trade that pistol , guns that do well with just about all ammo are to be treasured . As Col. T. Whelen said " Only accurate guns are interesting".
Gary

 

[fredj338]

You can take that too far. Decades ago I had some factory produced 210 gr SWC .45 at ~710 f/s. It may have been exceptional from a machine rest, but in my hands, it didn't shoot as well as my handloads. Decided to try something and pulled some bullets and reloaded them over my powder charges for (presumably-no chrono) higher velocity. The recoil was greater. The groups shrank markedly. The problem was barrel dwell time. I wibbled and wobbled more with the slower bullet and it blew the groups.

Hmmm, I doubt that was totally it. Dwell time is measured in micro seconds, your shakes are much slower. Me, I struggle with shooting tiny groups with the 22lr in most guns. Nothing to do with dwell time IMO, 1200fps is the same in 9mm, 22lr or 44mag. More mental than anything else.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Boy it must be nice to be able to get "LOTS" of loads at 1200fps or more.

I guess I will have to break down and get a 9mm with a barrel longer than 3.5" long.
I can only get a 115gr ball over 1200 with one powder and it is down hill as the bullets get heavier.

 

[ripvanwinkle]

Anything less than a 2 inch group demanded a second look at 15 yards. In the chain of pistol, cartridge, and shooter I know I am the weak link!

 

[m657]

Appreciate OP bringing this very subject up; I've had a hell of a time the last couple years trying to improve my groups, instead of looking like rat droppings on a dresser drawer.

For me, I was crushed to find that even my *best* loads on a different day, might well be considerably *less* good for group on paper.

I have simplified my 'acceptable recipe' now, to whichever gun/caliber is used, the defined goal is 'all rounds within the outline margin of a standard bowling pin at 50'. I have a flat template to mark standard bowling pin on paper targets, as I can see the outline, usually, well enough to know where my POI is.

After years of trial, I came up with 45 ACP recipes that shot better at 750 fps, and adopted it as my default load.

Recently have been trying out 820-850 fps to see how I do.

 

[fredj338]

Boy it must be nice to be able to get "LOTS" of loads at 1200fps or more.

I guess I will have to break down and get a 9mm with a barrel longer than 3.5" long.
I can only get a 115gr ball over 1200 with one powder and it is down hill as the bullets get heavier.

It isn't magic to hit 1200fps with 115gr bullets in even a short g26. Most of the medium burners will get you there.

 

[Nemo288]

I have also noticed that certain guns do have a sweet spot velocity-wise.
My 444s seems to print best with velocity between 2250 and 2350 no matter the bullet weight.
This applies to bullets from 240 to 310 grains.
The Encore .445 barrels are the opposite with each bullet weigh having a different sweet spot.
The chambering and rifling of these is completely different from the 444 with tighter specs and much higher quality.
I have enough revolvers I have never acquired enough data to do this for each one.
I find an accurate load (they usually jump right out at me) and stick with it for each weapon.
Then I choose the gun for each application like urban carry, rural carry, hunting etc.