Odd Model 41

[Kenneth L. Walters]

Decades ago Smith made a 5.5 inch M41 that had a front sight that could be pulled out to about 10 inches. Anyone know when those were made, how hard they are to find now and what one might cost?

Were any other Smith's made like this?

Also I think that there was a M41 in 22 short. Any other unusual variations?

Finally how hard would it be to find one of the original M41's complete with the muzzle break and both barrel weights?

 

[FlyFish]

The 5-1/2 inch barrel with the extendable front sight was made from 1965 to 1976. I have no idea how many were made, but I've seen a lot of 41s on the line in a few decades of Bullseye shooting and the only extendable front sights I've seen have been in pictures. SCSW places the value at 25% more than the standard 41.

The 7-3/8 inch barrel with muzzle brake is, in my experience anyway, a good bit more common but I don't see too many of those either. I believe they were available from introduction of the 41 in 1957 through 1978, when the 7-3/8 inch barrel and cocking indicator were dropped.

The .22 short variation was the Model 41-1, manufactured from 1960 to 1973 with fewer than 1,000 produced. SCSW says the 41-1 is valued at twice or more the standard 41, which would make it worth upwards of $2K or so. There was apparently also a .22 short conversion unit for the standard 41, which SCSW values at $1,000.

SCSW lists a number of other variations, including a rare factory nickel version and also an oversized trigger guard, and there are also some "tool room" guns with a "T" serial number that go for a 3X premium.

The less finely finished, but otherwise identical, Model 46 could be considered a variant of the Model 41.

The set of barrel weights that I have has 3 pieces, supposedly aluminum and steel (though I've never checked) - my understanding is that original barrel weight sets are worth as much as $500.

 

[TOM BECKWITH]

Good coverage Fly Fish - most key points covered. Kenneth, read thru posts on the 41s, 46s and 41-1s and you will get a lot of info and some great pictures from the members.

 

[Kenneth L. Walters]

Did the extendable front sight improve scores?

 

[TOM BECKWITH]

EFS - Have several of them and never seriously tried one - prefer standard 5.5" bbl and sights. Not aware of anyone using them extended, but not around that many bullseye matches. Seen more S&W 52s with underbarrel weight used.

 

[oldRoger]

"Did the extendable front sight improve scores?"

That is a very good question. The answer may be that it all depends.


How long a sight radius you can use to good effect depends on your eyes.
I can shoot a 7” barrel (approx. 9-1/2” sight radius) better than a 5-1/2” (with 8” SR).
I have an old target air pistol with variable sight radius (the rear sight moves) and for me 10” is about max.

I have not shot an extendable sight 41 but I have shot a 1911 with extendable sights. I shot it better without the sights extended than with.

My Pardini has easily replaceable front sights with various widths available and the rear sight aperture is adjustable for width. I can easily set it up to shoot better than a 7”-41.

 

[fyimo]

I had a Model 41 with the 7 3/8 inch barrel with muzzle brake and the sight radius was just perfect for me and it was a great shooter. I sold it earlier this year and I still kind of regret it.

 

[10xatten]

Kenneth,
I have an EFS 41, and like oldRoger and Tom seem to remember it shooting better not extended ( I don't shoot it that much). As far as bullseye matches, I vaguely remember reading a while back that the rules were changed to exclude those sights. I may be wrong there.

Richard

 

[civil1977]

A Model 41 thread without pictures? Let's fix that.

The 5.5" EFS barrel is shown at the bottom of this photo next to a regular 5.5" barrel and two 7 3/8" barrels so you can see what the sight looks like extended. I've shot it extended a few times but I prefer the balance of the longer barrels and tend to shoot them more.



There is a tic or witness mark on the top that you could line up with the muzzle when extended. It's just visible to the left of the screw closest to the muzzle.



Here's the oversize trigger guard (bottom) next to the standard. It definately has a more pronounced curve.



Here's a 7 3/8" barrel with external and internal weight sets. All steel three piece, aluminum upper and both steel and aluminum internal weights.



This is where the internal weight goes.



Here's the witness mark on the barrel for lining up the external weight.



And the corresponding marks on the external weight.



As noted .22 shorts were available as the Model 41-1 or as a kit.



Here's an interesting fact....the .22 shorts had aluminum slides and to prevent their use with regular .22 LR barrels and cartridges, the aluminum slide featured a little protrusion on the underside of the slide which mated into a corresponding recess in the .22 short barrel. The standard units don't have this. .22 short on the left.



.22 short mags only held 5 rounds and featured mag plugs and different followers to work with the shorter cartridges. Here are two.



Slide stop / ejectors were different too. The .22 short unit had a different cut to eject the shorter round sooner in the cycle. .22 short unit on the left.



Last but not least.....apparently Dewalt copied the Model 41 stocks when they designed my 18v flashlight. No wonder I'm so good with that light.

 

[TOM BECKWITH]

OK Civil - kinda stretchin it at the end ain't ya.

 

[10xatten]

Tom, you must be pretty good pals with Civil.

Richard

 

[smitholdtimer]

10xatten

I have no idea if these two gentlemen are actually acquainted but I am very sure that they are the source authority if you are speaking M-41, M-41-1 and M-46. When we need to learn more about these pistols we only need ask! Thanks to both for the shared information.

 

[TOM BECKWITH]

Civil1977 is a wealth of knowledge and his pictures explain more than words ever will. He is greatly admired by this old man. We are fortunate to have one of his character, knowledge, and skills. I believe he took my jab in the manner intended.

 

[civil1977]

Tom Beckwith, smithfan4152 and others on this Forum have far more knowledge and greater collections of Model 41s than I so I must tip my hat to them. I've learned a lot from the contributions of others on this forum.

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

Is this what you are referring to?

​

Product: Model 41 7 inch Barrel with Keng Sight

 

[10xatten]

Folks, especialy Tom and civil, I meant nothing negative, and certainly my remark was not meant to be sarcastic. I have spoken with Tom, and have only read civil's posts, but I was commenting on what I believe to be a great mutual respect between these fellows. I am sorry if my comment was misinterpreted.

Richard

 

[civil1977]

No issue here.

 

[oldRoger]

A question for the experts;

Does the slide lock back after the last shot in the .22 short set-ups?

Do you know whether S&W ever made a 5 round .22LR magazine which did not lock back after the 5th shot?

My Pardini does not lock back after the 5th shot (5-shot magazine). The Pardini experts tell me that the side lock back changes the point of impact of the last shot. They say that this has been confirmed at Olympic Levels.

I have experimented with a 41 by loading both 5 & 6 shots and then checking to see if the impact is really different on the 5th shot.

Unfortunately I cannot hold iron sights well enough even from a rest to positively confirm this, but I do believe that it may be true.

 

[10xatten]

Thanks, civil.
P.S I really love my 1973 EFS.

Richard

 

[civil1977]

A question for the experts;

Does the slide lock back after the last shot in the .22 short set-ups?

Do you know whether S&W ever made a 5 round .22LR magazine which did not lock back after the 5th shot?

My Pardini does not lock back after the 5th shot (5-shot magazine). The Pardini experts tell me that the side lock back changes the point of impact of the last shot. They say that this has been confirmed at Olympic Levels.

I have experimented with a 41 by loading both 5 & 6 shots and then checking to see if the impact is really different on the 5th shot.

Unfortunately I cannot hold iron sights well enough even from a rest to positively confirm this, but I do believe that it may be true.

Yes, the slide locks back on the last shot with the .22 short units. I don't think a 5 shot only .22 LR mag was ever made. I seriously doubt the slide being held open on the last shot would affect the point of impact as the bullet should be well out of the barrel before the slide opens. A standard velocity round is around 1,070 feet per second or 12,840 inches per second so it travels through the 5.5" barrel in around 0.0004 seconds.

 

[oldRoger]

Civil: Thanks for the magazine information.

Bullet out of the barrel before the pistol moves?
I would have thought so as well, I did the same mental calculations. But like much that we know, the problem is with that that we know which ain’t necessarily so.

The Olympic Shooters use systems like the SCATT
SCATT Shooter Training Systems: Products

The electronics are accurate enough to measure movement on the target as you sight, prep, fire, and as the bullet leaves the gun. I have seen a bunch of these patterns from an Anschutz Match Rifle, and even prone with sling, shooting coat, and the works, that heavy rifle moves enough that the sights have to be adjusted to allow for the movement.

So assuming that the rifle was perfectly sighted on the test sled it would shot a bit high in human hands. Enough high that you could not shoot a possible without adjusting the sights for your hold.

The Pardini experts say that the same is true of a “sport” pistol (I assume a free pistol as well) so any change in pistol movement like side lock back will upset the cart.

This is academic for me of course; I am not able to hold well enough to tell. Of course the Pardini has much less movement than the 41.

I suppose this same thought pattern might cause us to consider the advantages of the old single shots and straightlines, lousy sights and all.
Roger

 

[Hondo44]

I have one other variation that I don't think was mentioned; the 22LR with 5 " field barrel model, that is lighter with slim outside contours. It looks like a 7" barrel that's been cut off to 5" and in fact that's how S&W produced the shorter barrel on some of the last issued.

Field Model;

Details in this thread: Model 41 lightweight field barrel.

 

[kwill1911]

Another variation--rare USAF contract with special features:

 

[Barrie]

That gun should have a False Nose on it. It will look even much better wearing one.

 

[Hondo44]

The false front isn't long enough to cover that much barrel sticking out. The threads would still show. I wonder if that was for a silencer, nowadays called a supressor.

 

[kwill1911]

Yes, the barrel is threaded for what S&W called a "sound depressor." There is a thread protector that I left out of the picture. There is also a slide lock on the back so the action would not cycle.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hey, I used to have an Oxford Illuminated Gunsight.
Optical sights have come a long way since then.