Officer Saves from Mag Disconnects? Examples Please

[HayesGreener]

Over the past 45 years I have heard of a number of occasions where officers have won the fight during a struggle for their gun when they were able to hit the magazine release thus rendering the gun inert. I first heard of this from an Illinois State Trooper in the late 60's. Unfortunately I did not obtain the particular details at the time. I am looking for factual accounts of such incidents, as well as factual accounts of officers being injured or killed because they did have a magazine disconnect (I have never heard of one myself). If anyone has any factual accounts either way I would like cites as I will incorporate into my training classes. I am not interested in mall ninja internet tactical ranger expert opinions or surmise, they are available by the thousands, just factual and verifiable accounts please.

Thanks for your assistance.

 

[-db-]

Massad Ayoob has documented accounts of mag safety life-saves in his book The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense.

 

[M29since14]

...I am not interested in mall ninja internet tactical ranger expert opinions or surmise, they are available by the thousands, just factual and verifiable accounts please.

Well you certainly have taken all the fun out of it!

Seriously, I will be interested in what turns up here, though I have no documentable incidents that I can share with you. The best intelligence I have ever heard/seen from the record-keeping types is that the incidents run heavily in favor of saves, but given your admonition, I will say no more other than good luck with your quest.

 

[FiremedicMike]

I've never had strong feelings one way or the other on this issue. My current weapon has the mag disconnect, but to be honest I don't train that way (my own fault) and so it's unlikely that I'm going to think to do that in an adrenaline dump.

My philosophy is that the bad guy has two choices to grab off my belt, my k-bar or my handgun. I am mentally and physically prepared to stop his aggressive actions with whichever weapon he chooses not to grab at.

 

[robkarrob]

I am retired LEO, and my experience is no officer would want a magazine disconnect safety. First the idea that during a fight for the officer's gun, he would be able to somehow be able to press the mag button, to drop the mag, so the gun would not fire, is unlikely. He is fighting for his life. He will do all he can to retain possession of the gun, as he knows he will "die" if he loses the gun. How is he going to push that small mag release button? It is hard enough when you are holding it in a normal grip position, not fighting with all your strength to keep the gun. Could the officer release the mag, sure it is possible, but he also could regain control of the gun, after releasing the mag, and now his gun will not fire.

Second is many officers have pulled their guns, and had the mag partially drop without knowing it, not completely drop out, but enough that if the gun had a mag safety, they could not fire the gun. How many officers would want to carry a gun, and worry if the gun is going to fire? This is the same thought as people that don't like a manual safety. They carry with the safety off, but worry it could get accidentally bumped on, without their knowledge. With either scenario, a pull of the trigger and the gun would not fire. Without the magazine safety, if the magazine partially dropped, at least the officer could fire one shot, the round in the chamber.

There may have been, and are still some Departments that think a magazine safety could save an officer's life. But over time the issue of the gun not firing when needed is much more common than a struggle for the gun. I have seen numerous occasions, during training or qualification, when an officers mag partially dropped. After "fire" is announced, they look pretty stupid when they point and pull the trigger and only get off one shot, as the mag partially dropped out. In a life or death situation, I prefer one shot to no shot.

I have read some of those stories, on how an officer was saved by dropping the mag. I say stories as I do think that is what they are, stories not fact. Has a mag safety ever saved an officer's life? I would bet the answer is yes, with all the thousands of incidents over a struggle for the gun. But again for every one life saved this way, how many other situations have happened because the gun would not fire when needed?

As far as gun safety, who is leaving a gun lay around with no magazine, but they forgot that a round was still loaded in the chamber? The gun should be secured and fully unloaded. If proper gun safety rules are followed, a mag safety is not needed. Only a few states require a magazine safety before a new pistol can be sold in that state.


Bob

 

[4011]

Been nine years since the auto pistol training, but wasn't it first ftf to bump the mag with the weak hand if that didn't fix it rack the slide? That was when their was no stove pipe are the slide was not back as in empty!

 

[kbm6893]

I am retired LEO, and my experience is no officer would want a magazine disconnect safety. First the idea that during a fight for the officer's gun, he would be able to somehow be able to press the mag button, to drop the mag, so the gun would not fire, is unlikely. He is fighting for his life. He will do all he can to retain possession of the gun, as he knows he will "die" if he loses the gun. How is he going to push that small mag release button? It is hard enough when you are holding it in a normal grip position, not fighting with all your strength to keep the gun. Could the officer release the mag, sure it is possible, but he also could regain control of the gun, after releasing the mag, and now his gun will not fire.

Second is many officers have pulled their guns, and had the mag partially drop without knowing it, not completely drop out, but enough that if the gun had a mag safety, they could not fire the gun. How many officers would want to carry a gun, and worry if the gun is going to fire? This is the same thought as people that don't like a manual safety. They carry with the safety off, but worry it could get accidentally bumped on, without their knowledge. With either scenario, a pull of the trigger and the gun would not fire. Without the magazine safety, if the magazine partially dropped, at least the officer could fire one shot, the round in the chamber.

There may have been, and are still some Departments that think a magazine safety could save an officer's life. But over time the issue of the gun not firing when needed is much more common than a struggle for the gun. I have seen numerous occasions, during training or qualification, when an officers mag partially dropped. After "fire" is announced, they look pretty stupid when they point and pull the trigger and only get off one shot, as the mag partially dropped out. In a life or death situation, I prefer one shot to no shot.

I have read some of those stories, on how an officer was saved by dropping the mag. I say stories as I do think that is what they are, stories not fact. Has a mag safety ever saved an officer's life? I would bet the answer is yes, with all the thousands of incidents over a struggle for the gun. But again for every one life saved this way, how many other situations have happened because the gun would not fire when needed?

As far as gun safety, who is leaving a gun lay around with no magazine, but they forgot that a round was still loaded in the chamber? The gun should be secured and fully unloaded. If proper gun safety rules are followed, a mag safety is not needed.


Bob

I know two guys who are here today because of the mag safety, and I recall at least dash-cam video of a cop losing his weapon in a struggle and hitting the mag release, and the perp pulling the trigger on an inactive gun. These are not "stories". Massad Ayoob documented some in his book. The "mag release can get you killed" mentality is mall ninja nonsense, period. People who believe they're going to get into a shootout and have the presence of mind to do a "tactical reload" in the middle of it. And let's suppose in the 2 seconds that they are doing a tactical reload that the need arises to fire the weapon. Now they have ONE shot, which in all probability won't even hit the target since police have a hit ratio of about 20% nationwide, and even if that one shot hits, in all likelihood, the perp isn't down since handgun rounds aren't the best manstopper unless you hit heart or spine, but now the gun is empty, but the slide is NOT locked back, so it's gonna take you 2 hands to get the gun working again.


Dropping the mag when somebody is attempting to get your gun is about the most natural thing you can do. If you're already holding the gun, you move your thumb up 2 inches and the mag is out. In a holster grab, the first thing you do when somebody is trying to get the gun is to grab it yourself to try to prevent it.

 

[robkarrob]

Natural if you are holding the gun in a normal position. Natural if your not fighting for your life. Natural if your body is not reacting to the adrenaline rush. And when someone grabs and pulls at your gun, especially from a direction you did not see coming (another person), then your hand may not be in that natural position you are referring about. Remember your finger is not on the trigger, unless it was a shooting situation, so the grip pressure is not as strong for holding the gun. Finger on the trigger or within the trigger guard provides more holding pressure.

There are those that believe a mag safety is a benefit. The stories become fact and it still does not address the fact. If the magazine gets partially dropped, without the user's knowledge, is one shot or no shot the better option?

Bob

 

[Edmo]

I will not have a disconnect safety on any of my carry guns, and if you didn't notice I'm wearing both my "Mall Ninja" ball cap and "Internet Ranger" T-shirt...

Sarcastically, I'll propose if it makes you "more safe" to drop the mag during a struggle why not carry with an empty chamber? Or, keep the magazine and gun separate and only reveal the magazine once you are in complete control of the firearm? Even better, leave the gun at home and you reduce the risk of being shot with your weapon to 0%.

As a CCW civilian always have a spare magazine, especially if you have a disconnect safety. Scenario Update: You avoided the struggle and while sprinting for cover you accidentally bump the mag release dropping your only magazine. If you need to engage you will find your gun is now basically a rock and the single chambered round is unusable.

One Ninja/Ranger's thoughts...

Edmo

 

[Ofc.JL]

Both sides have good arguments. Magazine safeties have saved lives, just as no safety have as well, I'm sure. Hard decision to be made. And the key to successful implementation thru the Ranks is training, as with all else.
I carry a M&P FS.40 daily, and have done so for the last 4 years. The pistol has always worked, I can hit w/ it, and it has never failed to work. It does have a magazine disconnect safety. It was there when I got it, and I have never removed it. I do keep the idea of being able to "safe" my weapon in mind, should the need arise. Of course, it could depend on the scenario, if it was even do-able at the time. So, six of one, half dozen of the other. Each to his own, I say.
Just my .02$
Ofc.JL

 

[kbm6893]

Natural if you are holding the gun in a normal position. Natural if your not fighting for your life. Natural if your body is not reacting to the adrenaline rush. And when someone grabs and pulls at your gun, especially from a direction you did not see coming (another person), then your hand may not be in that natural position you are referring about. Remember your finger is not on the trigger, unless it was a shooting situation, so the grip pressure is not as strong for holding the gun. Finger on the trigger or within the trigger guard provides more holding pressure.

There are those that believe a mag safety is a benefit. The stories become fact and it still does not address the fact. If the magazine gets partially dropped, without the user's knowledge, is one shot or no shot the better option?

Bob

So you're saying that in an adrenaline mode, a shooter can't move his thumb to hit the mag release? If he can't do that how can he operate the weapon to begin with? And in 10 years of getting in and out of police cars with a semi auto, the mag never was released on my gun or anybody else's I am aware of.

And let's talk about the accidental shootings that kill or injure many every year. The ones that would have been prevented by a mag disconnect. I know you're going to say "know your weapon" but that fact is that the majority of gun owners shoot about 100 rounds a year. How many lives have been saved?

Somebody show me ONE time a mag disconnect got somebody hurt or killed. I'll show you a dozen where it was a benefit

 

[kbm6893]

I will not have a disconnect safety on any of my carry guns, and if you didn't notice I'm wearing both my "Mall Ninja" ball cap and "Internet Ranger" T-shirt...

Sarcastically, I'll propose if it makes you "more safe" to drop the mag during a struggle why not carry with an empty chamber? Or, keep the magazine and gun separate and only reveal the magazine once you are in complete control of the firearm? Even better, leave the gun at home and you reduce the risk of being shot with your weapon to 0%.

As a CCW civilian always have a spare magazine, especially if you have a disconnect safety. Scenario Update: You avoided the struggle and while sprinting for cover you accidentally bump the mag release dropping your only magazine. If you need to engage you will find your gun is now basically a rock and the single chambered round is unusable.

One Ninja/Ranger's thoughts...

Edmo

Bad comparison. Carrying with an empty chamber requires 2 hands to operate the weapon if the need arises. The weapon is still hot with a mag disconnect.

And anybody who imagines getting into a gunfight where they have to sprint for safety while reloading is living in fantasyland, not to mention in that highly unlikely scenario you hit the mag release to begin with! Better odds of hitting the lottery! Sure you're not wearing that mall ninja t-shirt?

 

[Coaltminer]

Whatever, it makes sense to me. Young boy killed by his uncle recently in PA, Glock "unloaded" except for the chambered round. Should make no difference, as in, muzzle pointed in a safe direction, but OMG, rules of gun safety. Have 2 auto pistols, one with mag safety, one without, actually prefer one with, I know I'm in the minority.

 

[FiremedicMike]

I'm really surprised that this has turned into such a heated discussion.

 

[kbm6893]

Whatever, it makes sense to me. Young boy killed by his uncle recently in PA, Glock "unloaded" except for the chambered round. Should make no difference, as in, muzzle pointed in a safe direction, but OMG, rules of gun safety. Have 2 auto pistols, one with mag safety, one without, actually prefer one with, I know I'm in the minority.

Minority in a gun forum MAYBE, but members if a gun forum account for a small percentage of gun owners, and I would bet the guy who buys a gun to keep in the house for home defense wouldn't mind one. Only problem is most of those people walk into a gunship and say "Give me a Glock. The cops carry them, right?" They have no idea it's even an option.

 

[surferdaddy]

I have one on my 40c. I always remove the mag before holstering and reinsert it after it is safely holstered. Not sure if indeed the trigger were inadvertently depressed when holstering and if it were still being pressed upon when I reinserted the mag; if the weapon would then fire? I may need to conduct a VERY unloaded experiment. Anyhow, always seemed to me to be a good use of a mag safety to prevent a negligent discharge.

 

[kbm6893]

There is a way around the 3rd gen mag disconnects. If you begin to press the trigger and then remove the mag it will still fire

 

[gboling]

Over the past 45 years I have heard of a number of occasions where officers have won the fight during a struggle for their gun when they were able to hit the magazine release thus rendering the gun inert. I first heard of this from an Illinois State Trooper in the late 60's. Unfortunately I did not obtain the particular details at the time. I am looking for factual accounts of such incidents, as well as factual accounts of officers being injured or killed because they did have a magazine disconnect (I have never heard of one myself). If anyone has any factual accounts either way I would like cites as I will incorporate into my training classes. I am not interested in mall ninja internet tactical ranger expert opinions or surmise, they are available by the thousands, just factual and verifiable accounts please.

Thanks for your assistance.

Are you sorry you asked yet?

 

[HayesGreener]

Amused

Are you sorry you asked yet?

I didn't intend to kick over an anthill but looks like I did. I also may be on the Mall Ninja Internet Tactical Ranger Expert hit list, which I can live with. I am still waiting for somebody to say they heard a Navy SEAL say they were or were not in favor of magazine disconnects-that will be the final word on the subject I am sure. I am somewhat amused but so far have only received a cite to Ayoob's book and one retired officer who knows a couple of guys who are walking around today because they had magazine disconnects. But I am not giving up hope-research is like that. Thanks for asking.

 

[kbm6893]

I didn't intend to kick over an anthill but looks like I did. I also may be on the Mall Ninja Internet Tactical Ranger Expert hit list, which I can live with. I am still waiting for somebody to say they heard a Navy SEAL say they were or were not in favor of magazine disconnects-that will be the final word on the subject I am sure. I am somewhat amused but so far have only received a cite to Ayoob's book and one retired officer who knows a couple of guys who are walking around today because they had magazine disconnects. But I am not giving up hope-research is like that. Thanks for asking.

The only way to get the info you seem is by getting access to official police shooting reports which you're not gonna get. Newspaper articles generally screw up gun stories so all they might say is be suspect was unable to fire the officers weapon. But if you google accidental shooting you will find many more. I can recall 2 in the last couple of months alone where the mag was out and the round was fired. They were even talked about on this forum. I remember dr the dash cam video where they perp got the cops gun and pointed it at him clicking away and getting nothing cause the cop dumped the mag. When backup arrived and they chased the perp the cop can be heard yelling "he's got my gun but I dropped the mag!" We watched it in the police academy. Might be on YouTube.