Has any one heard of what may have been an FBI load (not for sure), Made with a flat head with solid hard core and a softer lead outer core. In essence a 2 part bullet? Meant for the hard core to penetrate deep and drag the soft core with it.
Old 2 layer lead bullet
- Thread starter chance J
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Maybe 20 years ago, RCBS offered a mold that cast the bullet in 2 parts, one hard and one soft. You got some special glue with the set to hold the 2 parts together. It was not a success!
m1gunner
US Veteran
Lyman offered molds as well. They used 2 part epoxy to glue them together.
Gatofeo
Member
In the late 1970s, Lyman offered a two-part mould for .38 Special/.357 Magnum and in .44 caliber. I think there was a 9mm and .45 version too.
Anyway, you cast the nose section with pure lead, then the remainder of the bullet with a hard lead alloy.
Epoxy the two together and you had a lead softpoint bullet.
I don't believe that RCBS ever made such a mould. Lyman made it a few years then dropped it. Apparently, it was too much bother to cast noses and bodies from separate pots of melted lead, or cast them at different times and reassmeble later.
Never heard of your FBI load, or any that has a soft lead outer body that would drag a hard, inner core with it to increase penetration.
But then, all kinds of crazy, weird bullets get developed and tested every day. Most are rejected as inaccurate, ineffective, not living up to the inventor's claim, or too expensive or bothersome to manufacture.
Could you be thinking of a tpical armor-piercing rifle bullet? These have a hardened insert inside, with the jacket wrapped around it.
The bullet hits, the jacket peels back like a banana, and the hardened insert continues in or through the obstacle.
Such armor-piercing bullets probably date to the 1920s. I don't believe they were used in World War I, but were in common use by World War II.
Could that be what you're thinking of?
Anyway, you cast the nose section with pure lead, then the remainder of the bullet with a hard lead alloy.
Epoxy the two together and you had a lead softpoint bullet.
I don't believe that RCBS ever made such a mould. Lyman made it a few years then dropped it. Apparently, it was too much bother to cast noses and bodies from separate pots of melted lead, or cast them at different times and reassmeble later.
Never heard of your FBI load, or any that has a soft lead outer body that would drag a hard, inner core with it to increase penetration.
But then, all kinds of crazy, weird bullets get developed and tested every day. Most are rejected as inaccurate, ineffective, not living up to the inventor's claim, or too expensive or bothersome to manufacture.
Could you be thinking of a tpical armor-piercing rifle bullet? These have a hardened insert inside, with the jacket wrapped around it.
The bullet hits, the jacket peels back like a banana, and the hardened insert continues in or through the obstacle.
Such armor-piercing bullets probably date to the 1920s. I don't believe they were used in World War I, but were in common use by World War II.
Could that be what you're thinking of?
I think we're getting two different ideas confused here. The OP sounds like a description of typical armor piercing bullets where a softer layer engages the rifling, while the hard penetrator core provides enhanced penetration. Both Winchester and Remington produced metal piercing loads in .357 Magnum. Niether were like you describe, nor were they produced for the FBI. The Winchester load used a pointed cone shaped nose and Lubaloy coating, the Remington a round gilding metal covered nose (jacketed) with a lead body.
Faint memory suggests the 2 piece bullet to be one of the various brainchildren of James(?) Harvey and the time was well before the 1970's.
Faint memory suggests the 2 piece bullet to be one of the various brainchildren of James(?) Harvey and the time was well before the 1970's.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
WR Moore has a good memory. The Harvey 2-piece bullet goes back to the 1960's or earlier, another attempt to keep leading at a minimum in higher velocity loads while also providing a softer point for terminal performance.
Harvey also designed a bullet mould that allows a zinc washer to be cast into the base, supposed to act somewhat like a gas check.
I think what the OP is refering to (2-piece construction bullet for penetration) is a project undertaken for the FBI back in the 1970's. The subject matter was to improve penetration through automobile glass, specifically windshields (very tough stuff indeed, and the curvature of many windshields makes for a lot of potential angles of impact).
At just about any angle, very few handgun bullets will reliably penetrate through windshields without deflecting in path considerably, making it very difficult to reliably hit a target inside an automobile. At angles approaching 45 degrees many handgun bullets will not penetrate at all, being deflected off at unpredictable angles.
The result, as I recall, was dubbed the KTW Penetrator, featuring a truncated cone shape with flat point and very sharp edges, and having a base or insert (don't remember which) of a dense and hardened material (tungsten carbide perhaps?) intended to punch through in the event of impact causing the bullet nose to deform. Testing showed only a marginal improvement in penetrating automobile glass, and the project never resulted in much interest, although reported in the magazines of the day.
This caught my eye as a young copper, and I did a little experimentation of my own on several junk cars, using .357, .45ACP, and 12-gauge (00 buck and rifled slugs). At any significant angle whatsoever, I found that most shots were completely deflected by a windshield, and those that actually penetrated never continued on the original path. So, hitting an intended target inside a vehicle is actually quite difficult to do, even at close ranges.
Harvey also designed a bullet mould that allows a zinc washer to be cast into the base, supposed to act somewhat like a gas check.
I think what the OP is refering to (2-piece construction bullet for penetration) is a project undertaken for the FBI back in the 1970's. The subject matter was to improve penetration through automobile glass, specifically windshields (very tough stuff indeed, and the curvature of many windshields makes for a lot of potential angles of impact).
At just about any angle, very few handgun bullets will reliably penetrate through windshields without deflecting in path considerably, making it very difficult to reliably hit a target inside an automobile. At angles approaching 45 degrees many handgun bullets will not penetrate at all, being deflected off at unpredictable angles.
The result, as I recall, was dubbed the KTW Penetrator, featuring a truncated cone shape with flat point and very sharp edges, and having a base or insert (don't remember which) of a dense and hardened material (tungsten carbide perhaps?) intended to punch through in the event of impact causing the bullet nose to deform. Testing showed only a marginal improvement in penetrating automobile glass, and the project never resulted in much interest, although reported in the magazines of the day.
This caught my eye as a young copper, and I did a little experimentation of my own on several junk cars, using .357, .45ACP, and 12-gauge (00 buck and rifled slugs). At any significant angle whatsoever, I found that most shots were completely deflected by a windshield, and those that actually penetrated never continued on the original path. So, hitting an intended target inside a vehicle is actually quite difficult to do, even at close ranges.
Interesting. The only KTW ammo I ever saw was the teflon coated architectural bronze ones. Penetration was exceptional, but never saw any shot at angles or at glass.
I had the opportunity to shoot up a bunch of cars in the late '60s early '70s. I had the same results at any kind of angle on sheet metal. The slug might get inside the car, but you didn't know where it was going. This included .44 Kieth slugs at better than 1000 fps that went end to end on a '65/66 Mercury Monteray when fired dead on.
I also really vaugely recall something else called the Harvey Jugular bullet. Don't recall details, I expect I've got it buried somewhere though. Half-jackets?
I had the opportunity to shoot up a bunch of cars in the late '60s early '70s. I had the same results at any kind of angle on sheet metal. The slug might get inside the car, but you didn't know where it was going. This included .44 Kieth slugs at better than 1000 fps that went end to end on a '65/66 Mercury Monteray when fired dead on.
I also really vaugely recall something else called the Harvey Jugular bullet. Don't recall details, I expect I've got it buried somewhere though. Half-jackets?
David Sinko
Member
I have an odd-looking two piece bullet that I recently pulled from what had appeared to be a factory loaded .38 Special. The case was old and tarnished (not sure, but I think it was a W-W) and the bullet had a pointed, copper jacketed tip. I pulled it to examine it and was surprised to find that it was what appeared to be a swaged hollow base wadcutter with a pointed copper jacket attached to the front. The copper jacket was long enough that it had its own crimping groove and there was no exposed lead when the bullet was seated. The whole bullet weighs exactly 150 grs. It looked to me like an old but lame attempt at increasing penetration. I do not see how this can possibly be any improvement over a hard cast SWC.
Dave Sinko
Dave Sinko
flop-shank
US Veteran
....or wadcutter for that matter. Wadcutters penetrate plenty deep without being pointy.
Gatofeo
Member
WR Moore:
Thank you for bringing up the old Lyman bullet that used a zinc washer for lubrication. I had forgotten about that. That particular design dated to the 1950s.
The Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets No. 1 (1958) has two pages (90 and 91)on the Harvey Prot-X-Bore zinc-base bullets.
They were made in .35 and .44 caliber, for use in the .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special and .44 Magnum.
But as I noted, in the late 1970s Lyman did introduce a two-piece bullet you moulded yourself.
It was a pistol bullet, designed to be cast in two parts. The bulk of the bullet was cast hard, then a nose cap was cast of soft lead. Both were epoxied together.
More information on these Lyman Composite Cast Pistol Bullets will be found in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook No. 3, circa 1980.
As to what the original poster is talking about, I have no idea. I just offered an educated guess that included armor-piercing bullets as well as the Lyman composite bullet.
His question lacked detail, so a grumpy ol' desert cat like myself had to scratch his head and figure out what was meant.
Thank you for bringing up the old Lyman bullet that used a zinc washer for lubrication. I had forgotten about that. That particular design dated to the 1950s.
The Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets No. 1 (1958) has two pages (90 and 91)on the Harvey Prot-X-Bore zinc-base bullets.
They were made in .35 and .44 caliber, for use in the .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special and .44 Magnum.
But as I noted, in the late 1970s Lyman did introduce a two-piece bullet you moulded yourself.
It was a pistol bullet, designed to be cast in two parts. The bulk of the bullet was cast hard, then a nose cap was cast of soft lead. Both were epoxied together.
More information on these Lyman Composite Cast Pistol Bullets will be found in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook No. 3, circa 1980.
As to what the original poster is talking about, I have no idea. I just offered an educated guess that included armor-piercing bullets as well as the Lyman composite bullet.
His question lacked detail, so a grumpy ol' desert cat like myself had to scratch his head and figure out what was meant.
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