Old Army

[danalex]

I just bought this Model Number two Old Army
(# 4079 / 1863) and I'm waiting for the letter.
In your opinion can the box be original? , has anyone ever seen a box of this type for a Model n ° 2?

 

[Oyeboteb]

Box is recent, and someone made a nice effort with it.

 

[first-model]

I agree. Box is modern.

 

[Rambler42]

I agree. Box is modern.

But still very nice.

 

[glowe]

Personally, I would opt for saying it could be a period box. It has been refinished and the interior is recently re-done, but could be a period box or, at least a late 1800s box and maybe not original to the gun?? There is too much honest looking wear under the fresh varnish to be a recent manufacture. I see filled gouges, lots of scratches, wear to the edges of the wood frame and old hinges. The problem is that it could have been a custom box for any number of guns, since the interior is brand new. There is no way a gun would have sat on that felt for 150 years, or even 10 years without leaving oil stains, dirt, or black powder residue, plus there is not any crushing of the felt where the gun would have pressed on the fabric.

I cannot tell for sure if the eagle is inlet or a decal, but it does look like an inletted piece of brass?? If so, it was polished before the new finish was done. If not, could it be gold or gold plate??

Another option is that it is a very old silverware case that was re-purposed as a gun box. I have used them in the past and converted them into gun cases like the one below.

 

[BMur]

Old box

It’s pretty common for older boxes to be converted to an antique gun box/case? Most of them are quite old to begin with but what the box was originally is anybody’s guess. That eagle on the lid looks very nice to me and might actually have sat on a desk top of a Military officer. There were huge numbers of “Desk top” Wood boxes of that period that could contain anything from writing utensils to cigars to small tools, etc and most of them looked exactly like a period wood gun case. Even having the little key and lock.
It’s a very broad subject but if it’s done well like this box seems to be? The value increases when an antique gun is placed inside.

Murph

 

[Kinman]

Very nice box all the same. It does appear to have been refinished which is very common and even done by well meaning owners in an attempt to freshen up the appearance. The fabric is in far too good a shape to be original but that is even done to modern manufactured boxes by well meaning people to restore not deceive. The boxes size and shape appear to be suitable for a firearm not done by someone repurposing a box designed for something else. Repurposing is a very common use of solidly well built boxes as for those built to house silverware. Lock construction on most repurposed boxes should be well made and solidly mortised. In the era that those boxes were made many people did not own enough valuables to warrant locking their homes. Instead they usually had a set of drawers that could be locked or in the case of a box of cigars locked to keep the kids out as with a firearm. Locks just keep honest people honest.

 

[sheppard]

No comment on the box, but a big thank you for the photos of the S&W model one and model 1 1/2 . Merci!

 

[danalex]

the eagle is engraved in the wood with gold remains on it

 

[glowe]

While we are on the possibilities of finding early rimfires in original cases, I have one that I do think is original, but with interior relined?? It is an early gutta-percha case with a paper covered wood bottom and am sure it would be a distributor case and not a factory offered one, but no way to ever know for sure if it was original or not. Many of these cases are one-of-a-kind, meaning you never find another matching one out there, so the question of originality will never be answered.

The case has the styling and appearance that is period to the gun, which shipped on January 9, 1875 to M. W. Robinson, a New York distributor.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I also believe this box to be period correct.

Seems to be missing a badge or medallion.

Anyone know where I can get a replacement skeleton key?

 

[opoefc]

Gary, I think your GP box was originally a period ladies hair brush box, as I've seen those with that lyre symbol on the top with various items for a lady , and it's been repurposed to a gun box. Makes a very nice set up, however. Ed.

 

[glowe]

I also believe this box to be period correct . . . Anyone know where I can get a replacement skeleton key?

Is that what is considered a french style case popular with distributors for early S&Ws? Again, I would ask if that is an original case with a new interior??

 

[BMur]

European or French Style case?

I really like the wood cases. The European or French Style case I believe uses the design that basically includes a Form fit pocket where the antique gun resides. See photo.
I like that style a lot.

WiregrassGuy,
I have several keys if you want one? I’ll take a photo of them. No guarantee that it will work the lock though?

Murph

 

[BMur]

Authentic Distributor Case

I apologize for the 41 Colt but the Case is an original and rare
distributor case. Just picked it up! Super hard to find!! You can recognize Distributor cases by specific features that are seen in the below photos.
The Key seen in the photo and lock on the case actually works. This is also identical Wood case features for the Smith & Wesson Distributor cased Guns. I’ll post one later. I have a couple.

Murph

 

[first-model]

I guess that the OP's box was "modern" because it appears to be a lighter wood (softwood perhaps?) with a stained finish, and some sort of modern varnish over it. The embossed eagle and feathers also look a bit too modern for me; most of the period boxes I have seen have an inlaid brass plaque or (in a few rare cases) marquetry inlay.

But anything is possible, and the photos aren't that great so I could be way off base.

In any case, the green insert is almost certainly modern. I've never seen anything that even comes close to that level of refinement in a period box. And, it looks too clean to be period.

Mike

 

[BMur]

Extra keys

Here are some extra keys I have if someone needs a key for their box. No guarantee on it working the lock but they look really good in a cased box. So.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

Please excuse the thread drift. I'm a relative novice at locks but here's my take: Skeleton keys are a misnomer. It implies that there is a universal key for these locks. This style lock is known as a tubular lock and there are various sizes of tubular keys for each size lock. The hole in the key must be sized to the "pin" visible in the case lock. The 'flag' or flat paddle that goes in the key slot is a specific size to the lock (L & W) and will usually have "teeth" (the Bit?) cut into it that are specific to that lock. Lessor quality locks have just a flat flag and any flat flag key will work. A quick look at BMur's selection above will give one an idea of the bit mentioned.

 

[BMur]

Common features to "Early Cases"

When you study early Distributor/Dealer cases that date from approximately 1860-1885? You'll find common features to each. One of those common features is the lock. While conducting a survey on the Pocket 49's, 51' Navy's, 60 Army's, Rare cased Dragoons both large and baby? The one common factor about the locks was that "ONE" key opens them all. It's also true of the early cartridge guns like the Colt Lightning, Smith & Wesson Baby Russian and several of the double actions.

The early locks were very Primitive. The keys might have slight cut variations in them but the mechanism was very simple in early case making. It's one of many ways to determine if your case is actually a "period" case or later desktop or as mentioned a silverware or other purpose case.

As time went on the locks became more complex. The reason I mentioned that I don't guarantee that the key will fit your lock is two fold. One, the case you have might be a later case and the lock more complex and Two, often the lock is frozen, damaged, or just plain busted but you won't know that until you try it with a correct key. Some of the keys I photo'd are actually very early keys for very early Dealer cases and if you look closely some are identical. Others are much later. All are very old. Might even be a cuffs key in that mix.

Here is another photo of a Distributor/Dealer case that normally contains a Smith & Wesson Presentation 1 1/2 to a Railroad worker by name by fellow employees in 1876. I'm working on the gun right now so it's in pieces but you can see the common denominator with the early Dealer case as compared to the Colt Newline that I posted. Also a photo of the various locks as they appear on early cases but "ALL" use the exact same key.

This case dates to the exact same timeframe as the early Colt Newline lacking acid etching and the cases are basically identical except for the overall size of the case and cut of the compartments. The key from the Newline case also fits and functions in the lock for the Smith & Wesson Dealer case.

Just some of the features to look for when searching for "Authentic" early Dealer/Distributor wood cases. They are out there hiding. I've found several recently and most folks don't seem to know what they have.

Murph

 

[danalex]

modern and redone for revolvers