Old Shotgun Question
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Ivan the Butcher
Member
When talking about cartridge shotguns. the longer length is to obtain more shot speed from the complete burning of Black Powder. The tight choke is for game at longer distance, like deer or waterfowl.
With the advent of smokeless powder higher velocities are obtainable with shorter barrels.
The folded crimp shot shell did away with the card over the shot, which causes patterns to open more quickly. The plastic shotcup in a modern wad causes the pattern to act one choke size tighter. This is the main reason older twin barrels shotguns are Modified and Full choked and post 1965 shotguns are Improved Cylinder and Modified.
Actually barrel length is at various lengths for the purpose of weight and/or handling characteristics. Upland game guns are 26" and Sporting Clays and waterfowl guns are often 30 & 32 inches.
Pump and semi-auto shotgun often have shorter barrel for weight and overall length considerations.
IN ALL THINGS FIREARMS; THE EXCEPTIONS ARE ALMOST AS COMMON AS THE NORMAL.
Ivan
With the advent of smokeless powder higher velocities are obtainable with shorter barrels.
The folded crimp shot shell did away with the card over the shot, which causes patterns to open more quickly. The plastic shotcup in a modern wad causes the pattern to act one choke size tighter. This is the main reason older twin barrels shotguns are Modified and Full choked and post 1965 shotguns are Improved Cylinder and Modified.
Actually barrel length is at various lengths for the purpose of weight and/or handling characteristics. Upland game guns are 26" and Sporting Clays and waterfowl guns are often 30 & 32 inches.
Pump and semi-auto shotgun often have shorter barrel for weight and overall length considerations.
IN ALL THINGS FIREARMS; THE EXCEPTIONS ARE ALMOST AS COMMON AS THE NORMAL.
Ivan
There used to be more waterfowl hunters taking shots at longer distances.
Advantage full choke & longer barrel.
Now there are more upland bird hunters(pheasant, quail and such)
wider shot pattern with modified or improved cylinder and closer shots
so shorter barrel equals quicker & easier to get on target..
Advantage full choke & longer barrel.
Now there are more upland bird hunters(pheasant, quail and such)
wider shot pattern with modified or improved cylinder and closer shots
so shorter barrel equals quicker & easier to get on target..
Jack Flash
Member
I would hazard a guess that many shotguns purchased today are for home defense.
pittpa
Member
This begs the question, what choke for home defense, with #1 buck?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Very true, I was just looking at the hunting end of it..
A shotgun specific for home defense would be cylinder bore,
no choke restriction.
Back in the 60's when I started hunting...........
Most shotguns had the option of a full and modified barrel in the box.
A full choke would work for every thing, you just needed to let the quail get out a ways before pulling the trigger with the lead pellet loads.
There was also a "Poly-Choke" back in those days that went from Cylinder to full with a twist of the units body.
Some did not buy a full choke, if they did a lot of upland and rabbit hunting at 40 yards or less.
However my father like to hunt ducks and geese, so a full choke was in order.
We had Browning A-5"s as our top shot gun but did also have SxS 20 Ga. for the smaller game.
Most shotguns had the option of a full and modified barrel in the box.
A full choke would work for every thing, you just needed to let the quail get out a ways before pulling the trigger with the lead pellet loads.
There was also a "Poly-Choke" back in those days that went from Cylinder to full with a twist of the units body.
Some did not buy a full choke, if they did a lot of upland and rabbit hunting at 40 yards or less.
However my father like to hunt ducks and geese, so a full choke was in order.
We had Browning A-5"s as our top shot gun but did also have SxS 20 Ga. for the smaller game.
Targets Guy
US Veteran
I have a 1956 Stevens SXS 20g. Would it have a Improved and Modified do you think?
Ivan the Butcher
Member
That would most likely be true with any of the Buck sized lead or large steel in BB or larger. Larger shot has tighter patterns from any size choke than smaller sized shot. But in modern construction of homes and apartments, Buckshot penetrates almost the same as similar rifle projectiles. No. 4 Buck is 24 caliber and size T steel shot is around 26 caliber, These two have been known to defeat ballistic vests in certain circumstances. So the use of smaller "bird" shot (sizes 4, 5, & 6) is often recommended for more urban settings and using a modified choke produces controllable patterns (as civilians we are responsible for ever single pellet of shot we fire!)
So for hunting, pest control, and self defense in apartments Modified is most likely the best universal choice, with Improved Cylinder a close second place.
Many modern shotguns have screw in choke tubes, even in short barrels. This makes fixed choke barrels obsolete, to some small degree. However my older fixed choke Sporting Clays guns, continue to give very satisfactory results! And my 50 and 90 year old hunting shotguns are still some of the best you could buy for hunting, (not collecting!)
Many Police departments have gone to 9mm carbines or AR-15 type rifles because of the liability of loose patterning shotguns and their stray pellets.
Ivan
Ivan the Butcher
Member
Today I was practicing for a "Vintage" shoot at our club this Sunday. I shot a 20 gauge 1930's Stevens that was choked Full and Extra Full in 30" barrels. With the use of some special spreading shells as well a regular shells. I also shot a 1954 Sauer 25 1/2" 20 gauge that was choked Modified and Full. I decided to use the longer tighter choked gun for ease of swing and the extra weight. If I had your IC/Mod choked gun in 26 or 28 inches, I would tickled pink! and 30" would be a dream come true! I prefer IC/Mod for Sporting Clays, where many like Skeet/IC or IC/IC. In my 30" O/U's, I use IC/Mod in my 410 and 28 gauge Sporting guns so much I have never chanced the chokes since I bought them in 2005 (even for skeet shooting). In 20 gauge 0/U's I use IC/Mod in warm weather and Mod/Mod in cold.
Ivan
Don't look now,,but the high dollar and the high demand in the SxS market right now is for anything (other than 12ga) with bbl lengths 30 inches and more. Preferably MORE,
16 and 20ga SxS's with 32 and even 34" bbls are all the rage. Even 28ga guns with the same..
No it's doesn't make any ballistic sense,,these people are all shooting smokeless powder cartridge guns. In the past few years, those darling 26" 20's and 16 SxS's have become observers to the race to find and buy guns w/ 32" bbl's. "Handle like a Dream" they say.
The next thing I expect to hear is that they "Shoot Harder",,
Wing shooting is generally easier with a longer bbl than short stubby one, lead, follow through and all that. I can remember being told by my father and uncles about long bbls 'shooting harder', a 12ga was the only ga that you can kill anything with and a Full choke was your only option. I used to argue with them, that's what a young person does don't they?
I guess they'd be proud of me today knowing most all my shotguns are pre WW2, 12ga, & full choke and I use them as they are. No spreader loads, ect. Skeet w/a Full,,SC w/Full. Why not,,
Fads and fashion come and go. But the change over from BP ammo to smokeless probably had the most to do with the change in shotgun form. At that, it's taken a long time
16 and 20ga SxS's with 32 and even 34" bbls are all the rage. Even 28ga guns with the same..
No it's doesn't make any ballistic sense,,these people are all shooting smokeless powder cartridge guns. In the past few years, those darling 26" 20's and 16 SxS's have become observers to the race to find and buy guns w/ 32" bbl's. "Handle like a Dream" they say.
The next thing I expect to hear is that they "Shoot Harder",,
Wing shooting is generally easier with a longer bbl than short stubby one, lead, follow through and all that. I can remember being told by my father and uncles about long bbls 'shooting harder', a 12ga was the only ga that you can kill anything with and a Full choke was your only option. I used to argue with them, that's what a young person does don't they?
I guess they'd be proud of me today knowing most all my shotguns are pre WW2, 12ga, & full choke and I use them as they are. No spreader loads, ect. Skeet w/a Full,,SC w/Full. Why not,,
Fads and fashion come and go. But the change over from BP ammo to smokeless probably had the most to do with the change in shotgun form. At that, it's taken a long time
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I've had a Mod 24 Win in 16 Ga. since 1951. Used it for everything from Honkers to quail. Now it sits by the door with turkey shot.
Big Cholla
Member
Not True!
You would think, but not right. For home defense, no matter the barrel length, the choke should be as tight as possible to achieve the smallest pattern possible. For two reasons; the energy of pellet is dissipated quickly. The more pellets hitting in a small area the more apt the bad guy will be stopped. And two, with a very small pellet spread a well trained user of a shotgun can take a 'head shot' in a hostage situation. Say the bad guy has taken a member of the family hostage and is hiding behind. Given the slightest view of the bad guy's head a well trained and accomplished shotgunner could put say one half of the pellet pattern on that exposed area if the spread at that distance is well known. None of the above would be possible with an open choke shotgun barrel and the resulting very large pattern.
The wide spread shotgun pattern only had one use; that was to intimidate a crowd of bad guys. That was a popular tactic in the Old West that was overly popularized by the movie industry.
I was a home defense shotgun instructor. Volquartsen Company got their start building the best tight choked shotgun barrel obtainable back before the changeable shotgun choke systems were common. .......
You would think, but not right. For home defense, no matter the barrel length, the choke should be as tight as possible to achieve the smallest pattern possible. For two reasons; the energy of pellet is dissipated quickly. The more pellets hitting in a small area the more apt the bad guy will be stopped. And two, with a very small pellet spread a well trained user of a shotgun can take a 'head shot' in a hostage situation. Say the bad guy has taken a member of the family hostage and is hiding behind. Given the slightest view of the bad guy's head a well trained and accomplished shotgunner could put say one half of the pellet pattern on that exposed area if the spread at that distance is well known. None of the above would be possible with an open choke shotgun barrel and the resulting very large pattern.
The wide spread shotgun pattern only had one use; that was to intimidate a crowd of bad guys. That was a popular tactic in the Old West that was overly popularized by the movie industry.
I was a home defense shotgun instructor. Volquartsen Company got their start building the best tight choked shotgun barrel obtainable back before the changeable shotgun choke systems were common. .......
Big Cholla
Member
No, Again Not True
I would really like to see a verified citation of even one instance of any type of shotgun pellet having been known to penetrate any rated vest. I was attending SD Shotgun Instructor courses when the steel and bismuth shot was becoming available. I watched field tests of large steel shot thru tight choked barrels on available vests of mostly Second Chance manufacture. None ever penetrated even at point blank ranges. Before frangible rifle bullets were available all centerfire rifles had a major over penetration problem in common house building construction. Shotguns using lead pellets in 00 Buck and 0 Buck had more penetration ability than desired against common sheetrock construction. The "T" sized steel shot had far less penetration than lead shot because of the lesser density per shot pellet. In one class conducted by Clint Smith in Texas that I attended, it was determined at that time the optimum house shotgun self defense load was probably the heavy hunting load of mixed large and medium sized bismuth shot. That load would do the job on a bad guy and would lose its energy fast enough to not penetrate very much sheetrock construction.
The issue of using small pellet size in a HD shotgun has been beat to a frazzle by everyone. Again small shot looses its energy very quickly. Yes, it will do a good job at very close up tight and personal ranges, but will not do nearly as good of job at say across a large room distance as will the two heaviest lead shot loads will. I would not recommend the use of bird shot for HD shotguns except if one lives in a cheaply built multi-unit apartment house.
I still have a HD Shotgun with a 18.5" barrel equipped with a very tight multi-choke. It is loaded with that very heavy high base goose hunting load of bismuth shot. I am confidant that if forced to use it, an errant shot is not going to penetrate multiple walls and endanger people inside or outside my house.
Given the development of frangible rifle bullets, I am very much leaning toward putting up the HD shotgun and going with a very compact AR-15 in 7.62x39 loaded with 180 grain frangible bullets and equipped with an ACOG sight. I suspect that the use of shotguns for home defense is an era that is coming to an end, the shotgun capability and versatility being surpassed by advancing technology. ..............
I would really like to see a verified citation of even one instance of any type of shotgun pellet having been known to penetrate any rated vest. I was attending SD Shotgun Instructor courses when the steel and bismuth shot was becoming available. I watched field tests of large steel shot thru tight choked barrels on available vests of mostly Second Chance manufacture. None ever penetrated even at point blank ranges. Before frangible rifle bullets were available all centerfire rifles had a major over penetration problem in common house building construction. Shotguns using lead pellets in 00 Buck and 0 Buck had more penetration ability than desired against common sheetrock construction. The "T" sized steel shot had far less penetration than lead shot because of the lesser density per shot pellet. In one class conducted by Clint Smith in Texas that I attended, it was determined at that time the optimum house shotgun self defense load was probably the heavy hunting load of mixed large and medium sized bismuth shot. That load would do the job on a bad guy and would lose its energy fast enough to not penetrate very much sheetrock construction.
The issue of using small pellet size in a HD shotgun has been beat to a frazzle by everyone. Again small shot looses its energy very quickly. Yes, it will do a good job at very close up tight and personal ranges, but will not do nearly as good of job at say across a large room distance as will the two heaviest lead shot loads will. I would not recommend the use of bird shot for HD shotguns except if one lives in a cheaply built multi-unit apartment house.
I still have a HD Shotgun with a 18.5" barrel equipped with a very tight multi-choke. It is loaded with that very heavy high base goose hunting load of bismuth shot. I am confidant that if forced to use it, an errant shot is not going to penetrate multiple walls and endanger people inside or outside my house.
Given the development of frangible rifle bullets, I am very much leaning toward putting up the HD shotgun and going with a very compact AR-15 in 7.62x39 loaded with 180 grain frangible bullets and equipped with an ACOG sight. I suspect that the use of shotguns for home defense is an era that is coming to an end, the shotgun capability and versatility being surpassed by advancing technology. ..............
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Targets Guy
US Veteran
Well I had to get the old Stevens out and measure the barrel; 28 inches. So what I'm hearing is "Don't cut the barrel down for home defense."
Big Cholla
Member
By all means, cut that barrel off at 18.5". Just have a multi-choke system installed and then screw in the tightest choke you can find. If you don't want that expense, stay with the original barrel length and whatever choke it has. But, as stated before; work with the tightest pattern of shot downrange possible. .....
OK, you guys talking all the changeable chokes, tight patterns for home defense shotguns, show me one that average Joe can buy off the shelf for
under $300.
I'm not referring to what an accomplished hunter or shooter would buy and use. Average Joe doesn't know what choke does what, doesn't understand velocity, penatration and all that technical stuff.
The Mossberg 500/Maverick 88 is cylinder bore
The Remington 870 is cylinder bore.
Those 2 are in that price range.
Those 2 I would think are the biggest sellers in the home defense market. Reasonable price & dependable
under $300.
I'm not referring to what an accomplished hunter or shooter would buy and use. Average Joe doesn't know what choke does what, doesn't understand velocity, penatration and all that technical stuff.
The Mossberg 500/Maverick 88 is cylinder bore
The Remington 870 is cylinder bore.
Those 2 are in that price range.
Those 2 I would think are the biggest sellers in the home defense market. Reasonable price & dependable
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Jack Flash
Member
Words of Wisdom
Ah... finally a chance to slip this in:
"FBI tabulations suggest that the normal number of rounds fired out of a police shotgun in a fight is one."
-- Jeff Cooper, G&A 9/87, p. 67
I ran across that while rummaging through old magazines in the basement.
Ah... finally a chance to slip this in:
"FBI tabulations suggest that the normal number of rounds fired out of a police shotgun in a fight is one."
-- Jeff Cooper, G&A 9/87, p. 67
I ran across that while rummaging through old magazines in the basement.
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A nice '30's vintage Stevens w/ original bbls,,I'd leave it right like it is. They are fine shotguns and you see plenty of them on the Vintage shotgun courses now. They are again being appreciated. Once they or any of them are cut,,that's it for their originality.
A gentleman recently brought out his Dad's Stevens Mod 235 SxS to shoot skeet with us. It looked like it had never been used at all. A beautiful shotgun. I'd have really been disappointed had it been sawed to stagecoach length.
A short bbld pump can be had straight from the mfgs these days or with a bit of browsing of the shops, shows and net. Plenty of older mfg ones around or converted field guns.
As far as the choke, many of the newest ones have choke tubes so you can decide for yourself what choke you 'need' inside the abode to protect it.
I personally have never seen much of a difference between a full choke pattern and that of a cylinder choke pattern shot at coffee table distance.
Try it on a couple pie plates and see for yourself,,ten ft or so.
Remember your shotgun muzzle is about 3' closer to the intruder than you are when it goes bang,
The short bbl makes for the ease of handling.
An ounce+ (about 500grains) of lead shot at 1200+fps at that distance wether 7.5's or 2's isn't going to show a difference.
JMHO
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