old westerns question

[feralmerril]

I had a uncle that was a pro wrestler many years ago plus knew a couple through the years. When I was a lot younger I asked one whether it was fake or not. His answer was, "Do you think a human being could take that kind of punishment?"
Still, you have to be in great shape to get thrown around like that, and "mistakes" are often made in timeing etc.

 

[COL Jagdog]

Some educated guesses:

* botulinum -- very potent poison and easily found in old canned goods that weren't properly canned -- cowboys ate lots of pork & beans and canned fish and beef werre staples in the late 1800's -- rustle up some contaminated cans and poison the well.

* cyanide -- lots of gold and silver mines figure in the old Western movies -- cyanide has been used to extract gold/silver from ore since the Middle Ages -- rustle up some cyanide stocks from the local mine and poison the well.

* ricin -- found in castor beans and very very lethal -- there are known/reported cases of cattle dying from ingested caston bean mash.
Find the local grove of castor bean trees (ubiquitous in the West), make some castor bean mash and poison the well

*strychine -- found in many plants worldwide, particularly of the Gentian order -- pretty easy to harvest -- dumpe strychine containing bark, leaves, blossom in well and cattle are Tango Uniform

I know from my travels in the Middle East that some wells are known for "sweet water" and some known for "bad water" -- was told some wells had natural leaching of poisonous alkalis --

Dead animals are often used to contaminate water supplies -- remember the scene from "Dances with Wolves" where Kevin Costner freaks out when he realizes ther are dead elk/deer in the big pond, then puts his bandanna over his nose (to combat the smell) as he pulls them out with his horse, piles them up and sets fire to them with kerosene

My tactic: since I and my brother cowboys in our gang have been riding around the West for about 2 weeks (compressed in movie time to about 90 minutes) with a bedroll, rifle, revolver (14 shot guns at that) , plenty of ammo (and one canteen -- that automatically re-filled I guess) but with nary a roller-equipped weekend bag, we've been wearing the same underwear for 14 days -- strip down, throw underwear into well, put a sign up that says: "Grumpy, stinky cowboy villain underwear in water hole - drink at your own risk" -- Game over.
:D

 

[feralmerril]

I pulled out my book "Mountain meadows massacre" and it says the emigrants poisoned the indians with a poisoned beef and three or four died and just that they also poisoned the spring. Didnt mention with what. Pages 140 to 144. The entire story turned out a lie to excuse the massicure soon as the news hit. In fact in the same story the guy thought 60 people were killed and soon they found it was more than double that.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

You guys ever hear of Lee's Ferry? That's where start the boat trips down the Grand Canyon. Named for John Lee who was in charge at the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Later was tried and hung by the US Army.

 

[feralmerril]

I have wrote this before here but few probley read it. My wifes step mother is john doyle lee`s gr, gr, grandaughter. I didnt know it untill we bought a house here in cedar city when she laid that one on me. Turned out that as a history buff I knew more about him than she did.
It gets even better. Two years ago my wifes daughter got enagaged. Her and her now husband had a engagement announcment party with his folks, us and my MIL and FIL in southern calif.
My MIL and guys mother were sitting on the couch compareing notes and found out guys mom is the gr, gr grandaughter of one of the 16 orphans that was spared in the massacre and sent back to family in arkansas!
JDL was the only person exicuted for his part in the massacre. He was shot sitting on his casket at the massacre site 22 years later. His sons took his body home to panguitch about 60 miles east of cedar city.
My MIL and FIL came to see us here in cedar city after we setteled in and I took them to mountain meadows, the site of the massacre. Then I took them to the panguitch cemetary. My MIL found JDL`s grave after a half hour searching for it!
A statue was made of Lee to be put up in st. george with other mormon pioneers. A protest was made and his was bannished to a small museum at silver reef where he founded a settelment. I had my picture taken by it. Right after that I read some faction of the huge family bought it.
Now if our kids have a child he/she can say one grandfather killed the other grandfather!
While my MIL was mormon she converted many years ago to another denomination. None of us are mormon. Yes, I been to Lee`s ferry several times. Lee also founded new harmony just a dozzen miles down the road from our house.
Me and John Doyle Lee (about 6 years ago).

 

[KSCowboy]

Wyatt, you are right, here's a rig I found out in the east pasture just last week. A nickel six-shooter with ivory grips and a FA Meana rig.

I usually come across one or two every year when putting up hay but with the drought the bovines have grubbed things down to the point that these things are pokin' up like kids jacks on a billiard table.

 

[BearBio]

Botulinum could be used (I did a detail picking up birds infected with Type C ==Fish botulism also affects pelicans. Type A is the really deadly one) but not likely. Same with ricin, etc.(The castor patches came along later) More likely to use something like datura.. Trouble with vegetable products is that the might break down with different pH, other chemicals, etc. No one product would work everywhere. Besides poisoning waterholes for cattle, settlers did it to poison Indians. From reading history,I know strychnine and arsenic were used. The heavy metals are more likely.

 

[jaykellogg]

My biggest gripe about '50s westerns is the tendency to place characters from the late 1800's in modern situations and apply modern ethics. You really need to understand that these folks were all veterans of the Civil War and were all handy with firearms. Also there wasn't law enforcement like today and the attitude at the time is people did for themselves. If a person tried to avoid a shooting conflict he would likely be branded as a coward and not dependable. Also the shootout on main street (or front street) did happen but rarely. If you were challenged publicly you were given a chance to arm yourself. If you didn't and later the challenger shot you, likely the attitude would be "well, he was warned." If you were challenged by a much faster (or more experienced) opponent, you could arm yourself with a 12 gage and shoot the guy in the back. Likely it would be considered self defense Wes Hardin was shot in the back and the man claimed self defense.

Also this was the Victorian era and the attitudes were pretty much Victorian. If a bad man harmed (or molested) a "good" woman he would probably be hounded to death. In a robbery a good woman could hide jewelry in her undergarments. The robbers knew she probably had done this, but wouldn't reach up to find out. They might make her hold her hands high and jump up and down. What fell out was fair game.

Regarding poisoning a waterhole, the Indians would just drag a dead animal in there.

 

[cass]

When you watch the old westerns, and look at old photos of cowboys/gunslingers, they all have the gun holstered high on the hip or cross-draw, or in the waist band. When did the westerns decide that the holsters needed to be hung down to the knee? It must have been in the late fifties.

 

[DeadAye]

They could have just used antifreeze -- It's sweet and deadly.

I had to give up going to the range due to the great expense
I now see the advantage of plastic high cap guns.
You don't mind throwing them away when they're empty

 

[klondike]

My question is how they got all that camping gear( coffee pot, frypan, and canned goods) in their saddle bags. Did the horses back then have trunks?

 

[OK Hog Shooter]

I'm pretty sure it couldn't be much worse than navigating around other shoppers at Costco, many of whom have a situational awareness level consistent with blind bovines.

Did you mean "blonde" bovines? uh-oh...

 

[Wyatt Burp]

You guys ever hear of Lee's Ferry? That's where start the boat trips down the Grand Canyon. Named for John Lee who was in charge at the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Later was tried and hung by the US Army.

In '79 I hiked the Grand Canyon with a freind and we got a free river ride arranged by this girl I met who was entertainment director of the North Rim. We floated past the beautiful but desolate Lee's Ferry where Lee was banished before the law caught up with him. I remember the remnants of an old boat under water there. It wasn't until years later I learned the store of Lee and the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

 

[feralmerril]

In the old west once out of town you were totaly on your own. No telephone, get thrown from a horse and break a leg you were in big trouble. No resturants and passing saddle tramps often came up to a homestead and ask to buy a meal. Probley ask to sleep in your barn if the weather was inclement.
There is a old fallen in ranch near me. It is very unique as it has a very long rock fence that must have taken many 1,000s of very hard man hours to put up.
I asked a old local historian about it. It was about the first in that area on the trail. Wagon trains and other travelers would come through and pay with labor for meals and maybe hay by putting up that stone wall! If interested I will get theresa to take a picture and post.
There are old mines and ruins around here. We ride ATV`s and check out a few. Just getting off the quad and trying to walk up to look around can be a killer getting your breath much less dragging up equipment and working on them.
The other day on a ride a old local told me quite a story. I belive it was a great uncle of his probley around 1910 or 1920 had a horse stolen by a indian around Beaver. Thats 45 miles north of us. Somehow he knew (or tracked) the indian to Kanab. That is 120 miles with one heck of a mountain range to cross. His uncle WALKED to kanab in 4 days, killed the indian and rode his horse home!
The old spanish trail runs through here. It was used from about 1829 to the mid 1850s. The mountain meadow massacre happened on it in 1857. It go`s from santa fe new mexico to san bernadino california. At one time or another I have been over a lot of it. It go`s north to get around the grand canyon and then SW again. All of it is very hard country, steep mountains and dry high desert. I have rode stretchs of it here on our quad. Some of it is rough on a quad much less rideing a mule pulling carts or wagons! The early traders would make a round trip a year. They would capture indians and sell them as slaves in santa fe.
Wonder how many of us could make it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Spanish_Trail_(trade_route)

 

[valencman]

I will research the poison matter tonight. I know it was reported the francher wagon train party, (Mountain meadow massicure in 1857) was said that they poisoned a spring killing some indians and thats why the indians took part in wipeing out the wagon train of 122 people. However there were claims debucking that ever happened. Somewhere I have a source that names what poison was supposedly used. Still, it never happened, but may be usefull to know what type poison they thought was effective back in 1857. I gotta go to town now.
By the way wyatt, I had a close friend that was a budding actor that I used to work with on my department that was on a episode of gun smoke. His name is russell wiggins. He was featured in the episode as a solider and in it did a great job of demostraighting a sharps rifle.
Russ was a green beret in nam. We were guards together at lockheed. He may still be there if he hasnt retired yet.
Russell Wiggins - IMDb

That is one of my favorite all time Gunsmoke episodes. He is great in this role(with his quarter grained bedded) Sharps rifle. It had one of my favorite actresses in it playing his "to be" girlfriend (Gretchen Corbett) who played Beth Davenport on The Rockford Files. I could marry her for sure. I like the part where one of his fellow escapes tells him "You had better suck it up boy" when he thinks he missed the rock with 5 shots, and actually he wasn,t trying to hit the rock. If you ever see him again, tell him I,m a fan of his.

 

[valencman]

Quote:"We were guards together at lockheed. He may still be there if he hasnt retired yet." I just caught that part. Was that Lockheed in Georgia by any chance? I had a uncle to retire from there. He is 90 years old and still drawing a pension from that place. If I could be so lucky.

 

[feralmerril]

I studied the mountain meadow massacre before I knew I married into family connections. After finding that out I have been studying it again.
"The mountain meadows massacre" by juanita brooks is by far the best book on it. She also wrote the book "John Doyle Lee" I have it too.
I belive Lee was guilty and deserved his exicution. The bad thing was he also was used as a scapegoat to keep many more from being exicuted as they were as guilty as he.
We live in cedar city. It was the cedar city militia that massacred the wagon train with the help of indians in the area. I also know at least one of the decendants of others that escaped exicution by testifing against lee. I find this interesting but theresa gets scared with my researching because we are "gentiles" in the heart of the area.
Dont bother ol` road hawg none.

 

[feralmerril]

Valencman, I will have to call around and see what happend to russ. He was/is a fine sharp guy. I doubt few of the rest of our department even knew he was a actor. He never advertised it. Once as a union rep he gave a very stirring passionate speech. I kiddinly told him he should have been a evangelist. His jaw dropped in surprise and he admitted he HAD been one! I dont think anyone else knew that and I doubt he wanted them to. He must be about 65 now. I belive he was from georgia or alabama. He was a good guy and fun to work with. He was a family man and adventerious. No, we worked together in palmdale california. He wasnt the only actor I worked with several others were on my department at times. I was a guard at universal studios before I went to lockheed in 1965. In southern california there were many bit actors and other studio workers that floated around. I guess for us that had no good techinal training ended up as guards.

 

[cass]

In the old west once out of town you were totaly on your own. No telephone, get thrown from a horse and break a leg you were in big trouble. No resturants and passing saddle tramps often came up to a homestead and ask to buy a meal. Probley ask to sleep in your barn if the weather was inclement.
There is a old fallen in ranch near me. It is very unique as it has a very long rock fence that must have taken many 1,000s of very hard man hours to put up.
I asked a old local historian about it. It was about the first in that area on the trail. Wagon trains and other travelers would come through and pay with labor for meals and maybe hay by putting up that stone wall! If interested I will get theresa to take a picture and post.
There are old mines and ruins around here. We ride ATV`s and check out a few. Just getting off the quad and trying to walk up to look around can be a killer getting your breath much less dragging up equipment and working on them.
The other day on a ride a old local told me quite a story. I belive it was a great uncle of his probley around 1910 or 1920 had a horse stolen by a indian around Beaver. Thats 45 miles north of us. Somehow he knew (or tracked) the indian to Kanab. That is 120 miles with one heck of a mountain range to cross. His uncle WALKED to kanab in 4 days, killed the indian and rode his horse home!
The old spanish trail runs through here. It was used from about 1829 to the mid 1850s. The mountain meadow massacre happened on it in 1857. It go`s from santa fe new mexico to san bernadino california. At one time or another I have been over a lot of it. It go`s north to get around the grand canyon and then SW again. All of it is very hard country, steep mountains and dry high desert. I have rode stretchs of it here on our quad. Some of it is rough on a quad much less rideing a mule pulling carts or wagons! The early traders would make a round trip a year. They would capture indians and sell them as slaves in santa fe.
Wonder how many of us could make it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Spanish_Trail_(trade_route)

I'm very jealous of you back country travels - I'd love to do that. In your excursions, do you carry a metal detector?? Now, that would be fun.

 

[feralmerril]

Yes, I have one but really havent found anything exciteing with it yet. A lot of our rides are with other people for safetys sake and they like to put in miles and I dont want to slow them down.