opinion on escalation

[ISCS Yoda]

There is such a thing as the combat mindset. If you're carrying a gun you're supposed to have it. The mindset should include your basic firearms training, all of your practiced skills, and your choice of whether you will use your weapon or not. You don't put yourself into the combat mindset by racking your slide. All you do is make it likely that you'll have an accidental discharge.

Even a cocked and locked 1911 can be drawn and pointed without immediately flicking off the safety. It takes experience but nobody should carry a 1911 unless they know what they are doing with it.

The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA.

For average American gun folks, it's a VERY bad practice. Whomever told that story to the OP needs some serious instruction into lethal force and use of weapons.

 

[Arik]

The Israelis do it for a different reason and it should not be implemented for civilians in the US.

 

[Mexistrat]

Great discussion, and lots of good points. I absolutely don't think that drawing means you have to be commited to shooting. I do think that you should be ready though. The reason I don't carry a semi-auto other than the fact that I don't own one is that I am not trained in their use. When I do get the 1911 I've always wanted, I won't carry it until I've taken at least one tactical handgun course with it, and trained some more. I should actually train with my revolver beyond just going to the range, and this discussion has reminded me of that.

I am glad to know that the general consensus seems to be that this guy is a joker, and likely not a cop (or at least not a very smart one).

 

[roscoepc]

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.

Respectfully I have to disagree with your belief... If there's a situation that warrants pulling, racking, and pointing a gun at a person, you're in a life or death situation. That's really the only time a weapon should be used in self defense anyway, Right??? A pistol is NOT used to threaten or intimidate!!!! It's used for Center Mass......

 

[Smoke]

He is gecko45!

For an hour of entertainment Google "gecko45".

I think I posted a link to the complete original threads from Glock Talk somewhere here

 

[gray wolf]

They reminded us continuously that you will revert to your training under stress. I can't imagine carrying differently on duty and off.

You will revert back to the level of training you have mastered.
People sell themselves short if they think they will rise to the occasion.

There is such a thing as the combat mindset. If you're carrying a gun you're supposed to have it. The mindset should include your basic firearms training, all of your practiced skills, and your choice of whether you will use your weapon or not. You don't put yourself into the combat mindset by racking your slide. All you do is make it likely that you'll have an accidental discharge.

Even a cocked and locked 1911 can be drawn and pointed without immediately flicking off the safety. It takes experience but nobody should carry a 1911 unless they know what they are doing with it.

The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA.

For average American gun folks, it's a VERY bad practice. Whomever told that story to the OP needs some serious instruction into lethal force and use of weapons.

I couldn't agree more with the above statement.

As for the 1911 ? folks that carry with an empty chamber will say many things to defend what they do.
When the truth is they are just insecure about doing it.
For them I recommend: get over it or get a different side arm,
Of course they could acquire a full understanding of how a 1911 works,
at least take note the thumb safety blocks the sear AND the hammer.
The grip safety and the trigger finger add to the mix.

Rack a slide and you just told me where you are and where to shoot.
Turn on a laser and while you are trying to find me with it I can put a few in your center mass.

The best thing to do with people that give that kind of info as in the OP
is to get away from them.
They have other problems way beyond cocked and locked or one in the pipe.
If you let them they will grind you into the ground with there conveluted thinking.

 

[Darkhawk]

If you carry, Concealed or Open,Carry Condition One, Locked and Cocked

 

[Smoke]

The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA .

This ^was true at one time it is not true now,

When the Israeli Defense Force was originally formed back in the 40s, they were armed with whatever weapons they, as a nation, could quickly acquire. This meant that their pistols were a mish-mash of different designs. Some single action, some double action, some with safeties, and some without. Many were not drop safe. Many did not have holsters.

They needed one simple method to train a large number of people, many of them inexperienced in the use of arms, regardless of what weapon they had. The result was to carry with the chamber empty and rack on the draw. This method:

1) works regardless of the gun's design (SA, DA, safety, no safety)
2) prevents a non-drop-safe gun from going off if dropped (a real possibility when you just stick it in your waistband because you don't have a holster)
3) avoids the possibility of someone not accustomed to a safety sticking a loaded, cocked, and unlocked single action into their waistband

It is important to note that this method IS A COMPROMISE.

There is no tactical advantage to be gained from carrying this way. In fact there is a tactical disadvantage, because it requires both hands. With a modern firearm, there is no safety advantage to be gained from carrying chamber empty, either. (One possible exception to this is someone trying to shoot you with your own gun, but if you are planning your carry method based on someone stealing your concealed gun from you before you can react, perhaps you should reconsider carrying a gun.)

If you need to use a gun in self defense, you're already behind the curve because:
A) You didn't see the situation coming in time to avoid it.
B) You weren't able to find and take an escape from the situation once it started.
C) You weren't able to control or de-escalate the situation before a gun became your only option.
D) You need a gun RIGHT NOW.
E) Your gun is still in its holster (because you don't draw before you need it, right?)

Why put yourself at a further disadvantage by having that holstered gun unloaded as well?

You are not a member of the IDF. You are not mandated to carry your gun in a less-than-optimal manner. Why would you choose to handicap yourself this way? Why would you carry in a manner that may require more hands than you'll have available? That takes more time to deploy? That precludes the ability to fire from retention? That requires putting the gun out there in a place that's bad for retention?

The Israelis don't carry chamber empty because it's tacti-cool. It was a compromise that gained a bit of needed safety at the cost of tactical advantage. Today, now that they have standardized, modern pistols, many Israelis (like SWAT and Special Forces units) do carry with a loaded chamber.


Just carry with one in the pipe, already.

 

[Smoke]

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hearsi a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.

Yeah........ No.

If I pull my weapon shots fired or not I'm going to have to justify my actions to someone. I'm going to have to articulate specifically what the bad guy did that convinced me that my life was in imminent danger.

What you are describing would be a crime in Colorado unless you could justify that your life was in imminent danger and if your life was in imminent danger you wouldn't have time to chamber a round.

Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hearsi a racking semiautomatic.

Unless of course the bad guy sees and hears you have a feed jam at the worstpossible moment

 

[wingriderz]

If the cartridge that should have been in the chamber was being carried in his shirt pocket, I think I know who this was.

Indeed. R I P. Barny.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic . . .

This is an urban legend on par with the Neimann Marcus cookie recipe. Most confrontations don't start with a showdown in the middle of the street akin to The Quick and the Dead. You aren't afforded that four or five seconds to assume a stance, draw, rack, and assume a modified Weaver stance. If you don't believe me, I don't care. You roll your way, I'll roll mine.

 

[RalphMP9FS]

This is an urban legend on par with the Neimann Marcus cookie recipe. Most confrontations don't start with a showdown in the middle of the street akin to The Quick and the Dead. You aren't afforded that four or five seconds to assume a stance, draw, rack, and assume a modified Weaver stance. If you don't believe me, I don't care. You roll your way, I'll roll mine.

Thanks, that was the typical response I thought I would get. If the bad guy has planned his attack and executes it within a couple of seconds, your defensive plan will fail. The odds are much greater that you will confronted with bodily harm during a road rage incident or during a domestic dispute, which is 100 times more likely to occur than a planned armed assault. I can't teach common sense, nor will I try to.

 

[Smoke]

The odds are much greater that you will confronted with bodily harm during a road rage incident

I can't picture a road rage incident where you have time to do all that where you would also be justified in doing all that

or during a domestic dispute, which is 100 times more likely to occur than a planned armed assault.

Why are you involving yourself in someone else's DV incident?

I can't teach common sense, nor will I try to.

But I'm sure a guy with one CHP class and 6 or so months experience carrying a gun has plenty to teach a professional cop with YEARS of experience (Muss not me)

ETA

Ijust finished my CCW class two weeks ago here in Illinois. Inadvertently exposing your firearm is not illegal and not considered brandishing. Also, if you are cited for any gun carrying violations, you are fined $150 for each violation and can have your license revoked, only after the third violation.

posted on 12/09/2014

 

[Arik]

I guess,since cops rarely get attacked out of nowhere they should just carry without eve a mag in the gun. Chances of them getting mugged or beat up randomly are slim to none. Most often they get a call to show up. Plenty of time there to load

 

[Arik]

Plenty of time to scare the guy here
https://youtu.be/oWcPulKK07w

 

[Arik]

Also what do other people's domestic problems have to do with me. And road rage incidents is the last place you want to have an unloaded gun. Not only are you in an uncomfortable position to get to the gun easily but it's also not loaded. One more thing to think about. .....you may not always have the use of both hands. If you find yourself in a fight and using one hand to hold off the attacker who's going to chamber your gun?

Here's a good video on how hard it is to get your gun out let alone chamber it.

https://youtu.be/J_KJ1R2PCMM

 

[BigBill]

I was ccw a 6" python in a shoulder holster. I lost it one time. A drug user next door told me I was lucky my truck had a alarm system in it and he couldn't make any money on me. I drew the python and told him if I ever caught him or anyone else in my truck ripping me off I'd shove this up your butt and pull the trigger. His eyes were big as silver dollars. After that if he was outside when I walked out of the house he went in his house. He avoided me for a year. This clown grew up with my three brothers who were punch first ask questions later they were tough if u crossed them. He should of known better to mess with me. My brothers taught me. This was 35 years ago.

My point is yes there was six rounds in the cylinder.

 

[old bear]

I'll start by saying the today's L/E's received much better training than those of us who started the job in the 1970's.

But remember that now as then to many cops firearms are just one more tool then carry to do the job. So many of today's L/E's are not firearm experts.

TO those of you who are currently on the Job, please understand that the above is not a shot. You are doing a job that I'm not sure I would want to have to do in the current way society treats each other and you.

 

[g8rb8]

opinion on escalation

His position was that when "off-duty" he carried without one in the chamber. Reason being that during a confrontation, racking the slide put him in a "combat state of mind" and would intimidate the other party into backing down.

There's bad escalation and good escalation.

In general I'd say the situation presented in this example is bad escalation.

On the other hand I like escalating a beer from the table top to my mouth. That's an example of good escalation.

 

[BigBill]

I feel bad and really respect the LEO's of today. It's bad in some areas. It's escalating out of control. Even with some of the strictest gun laws in the country the murder rate is up. The people in Newtown should be proud of what they done.