tomcatt51
Member
So, your position is that any firearm that has an OOB should go back to the factory for "service"?
Out of battery discharge new rifle
- Thread starter 47MolineRTU
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LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Yes. Please explain to me how I might be mistaken.
tomcatt51
Member
See post #18. He's got it pretty well covered.
one eye joe
US Veteran
OOOPS---THAT WAS A TACTICAL ERROR ON YOUR PART. NOW EACH OF US MUST WORK OFF AN INDIVIDUAL IMAGE, CONJURED IN OUR OWN MIND---RATHER THAN THE IDENTICAL ACTUAL EVIDENCE, THAT IS SHARED.....
IT IS, WHAT IT IS---BUT I DO WISH TO CORDIALLY WELCOME YOU TO THE FORUM........
Kp321
Member
I must come to the defense of these rifles. I shoot every week with a group of 12 to 20 shooters, all of whom shoot the 15-22. Over the past four years, I have personally observed on the order of 200,000 rounds through 15-22's with two OOB discharges. Both of these were new PC rifles using el cheapo ammo. The fired cases looked like what the OP described.
I have seen 10-22's do the same with c**p ammo.
I have seen 10-22's do the same with c**p ammo.
dlidster
Member
one eye joe
US Veteran
WILL SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN, IN TERMS THAT RESULT FROM A CONCLUSION DRAWN, THROUGH USE OF "THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD" OF INQUIRY---EXACTLY HOW OR WHY THIS PHENOMENON OCCURS......
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, IMHO---OBSERVATIONS LIKE C**P AMMO OR STUFF HAPPENS, DO LITTLE TO EXPLAIN WHAT IS ACTUALLY OPERANT......
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, IMHO---OBSERVATIONS LIKE C**P AMMO OR STUFF HAPPENS, DO LITTLE TO EXPLAIN WHAT IS ACTUALLY OPERANT......
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GhostMutt
Member
"From a conclusion drawn"...could only come from someone who has experienced an OOB in the 15-22...4+ years, weekly shooting...10000's of rounds and NOT ONE ISSUE with my rifle at all.
In my amateur Colombo-esque investigation:-
From what I've heard and read the 15-22 will still cycle rounds without an extractor in place just from the blowback action. So that counts out an OOB unless the OOB causes the extractor to blow out...no one has ever fired an extractorless 15-22 to find out if an OOB would still occur. So counting out the extractor that leaves a few other things.....(lights cigar)
A very dirty feed ramp, chamber face and bolt face would stop the rounds seating properly which I suppose could lead to an OOB. (Searching through mac for my notebook)
The ejector...it is well known that this is a fix that some factory 15-22 have to undergo...if the ejector is not in the correct position then it will not eject the casing which could lead to cycling issues and again OOB (Scratches head)
If the barrel nut is not tight on the rifle it may lead to issues...mine was not tight and led to accuracy issues, I could foresee problems if it was very loose...but surely you'd notice that (relights cigar)
Ah just one more thing ma'am
One thing that will certainly cause feed and ejection issues is the correct loading of the magazines. If the rounds are not staggered in the mag correctly they will not be at the right angle to feed...if the bolt hangs up somehow due to an issue chambering then the result would be a rough cycle which I could easily foresee leading to a FTFeed, FTFire, FTEject and a potential OOB. (Whistles the theme to 'This Old Man)
BUT I AM NOT COLUMBO, therefore all of that is pure speculation.
In my amateur Colombo-esque investigation:-
From what I've heard and read the 15-22 will still cycle rounds without an extractor in place just from the blowback action. So that counts out an OOB unless the OOB causes the extractor to blow out...no one has ever fired an extractorless 15-22 to find out if an OOB would still occur. So counting out the extractor that leaves a few other things.....(lights cigar)
A very dirty feed ramp, chamber face and bolt face would stop the rounds seating properly which I suppose could lead to an OOB. (Searching through mac for my notebook)
The ejector...it is well known that this is a fix that some factory 15-22 have to undergo...if the ejector is not in the correct position then it will not eject the casing which could lead to cycling issues and again OOB (Scratches head)
If the barrel nut is not tight on the rifle it may lead to issues...mine was not tight and led to accuracy issues, I could foresee problems if it was very loose...but surely you'd notice that (relights cigar)
Ah just one more thing ma'am
One thing that will certainly cause feed and ejection issues is the correct loading of the magazines. If the rounds are not staggered in the mag correctly they will not be at the right angle to feed...if the bolt hangs up somehow due to an issue chambering then the result would be a rough cycle which I could easily foresee leading to a FTFeed, FTFire, FTEject and a potential OOB. (Whistles the theme to 'This Old Man)
BUT I AM NOT COLUMBO, therefore all of that is pure speculation.
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Blackstuff
Member
<In Patrick McGoogan voice> You forgot something Columbo!! People using ammunition specifically mentioned in manual which you're not supposed to use!
(Although that doesn't appear to be the case in this instance)
(Although that doesn't appear to be the case in this instance)
Egg on Leggs
Member
The one fundamental advantage that Columbo had was access to the script, something we don't have.
I have personally witnessed three of these, always on a hot day after firing numerous rounds. (I coach speed shooting with teenagers).
A picture. Note the bolt face "coined" into the base of the case and two firing pin hits. This was absolutely not a misfired round that got reinserted. All misfired or misfed rounds go into my left pocket during events and never come out during shooting. The young lady was in the middle of a string for time, I was timing her. The gun sounded louder, I saw a flash of flame, and then I got hit in the neck with the empty case.
We had two more identical events (except my buddy Kevin got "shot" in the neck with the second one and no one got shot with the third.) Shooting timed strings with rimfires requires the timer to have his hand, holding the timer, out near the muzzle. Otherwise the microphone misses the sound of some shots. Your hand is NEVER down range, but this position puts your neck right by the ejection port.
About shade tree gunsmithing and dirty guns - our team had an armorer who is a professional. They were unmodified. He cleaned the guns between kids (ten kids shared three guns). It was a hot day and the guns got hot and stayed hot, despite frequent cleaning (the guns were not torn down between every shooter but were sprayed and scrubbed). If any gun jammed it was torn down. All guns had probably seen a few hundred rounds that day. This is the nature of kids shooting sports, the guns see a lot of rounds. Matches tend to be in the south, in the summer.
I sent pictures and a detailed description to S&W. I never heard back (never expected to hear back). I'm an engineer in the safety business. "Public utterances" come back to bite the company. Until the moment they are ready to go public with a recall it is better to say nothing. Apparently they are not there yet.
All involved guns were sent back to Smith and Wesson, one had blown out the extractor, the others were functional. All came back clean and shiny and this never happened again.
A picture. Note the bolt face "coined" into the base of the case and two firing pin hits. This was absolutely not a misfired round that got reinserted. All misfired or misfed rounds go into my left pocket during events and never come out during shooting. The young lady was in the middle of a string for time, I was timing her. The gun sounded louder, I saw a flash of flame, and then I got hit in the neck with the empty case.
We had two more identical events (except my buddy Kevin got "shot" in the neck with the second one and no one got shot with the third.) Shooting timed strings with rimfires requires the timer to have his hand, holding the timer, out near the muzzle. Otherwise the microphone misses the sound of some shots. Your hand is NEVER down range, but this position puts your neck right by the ejection port.
About shade tree gunsmithing and dirty guns - our team had an armorer who is a professional. They were unmodified. He cleaned the guns between kids (ten kids shared three guns). It was a hot day and the guns got hot and stayed hot, despite frequent cleaning (the guns were not torn down between every shooter but were sprayed and scrubbed). If any gun jammed it was torn down. All guns had probably seen a few hundred rounds that day. This is the nature of kids shooting sports, the guns see a lot of rounds. Matches tend to be in the south, in the summer.
I sent pictures and a detailed description to S&W. I never heard back (never expected to hear back). I'm an engineer in the safety business. "Public utterances" come back to bite the company. Until the moment they are ready to go public with a recall it is better to say nothing. Apparently they are not there yet.
All involved guns were sent back to Smith and Wesson, one had blown out the extractor, the others were functional. All came back clean and shiny and this never happened again.
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Having read all the preceding posts for a second time I want to point out how some people have flawless experience and others have scary experience. Every manufactured part has tolerances. A part that should be "1.235 inches" will be allowed to fall into a range, of plus or minus something. "Something" is the operative word here: Plus or minus 1/1000 or an inch? That is expensive. Plus or minus 5/1000 of an inch is cheaper. Every part has tolerances on every dimension and they vary. Good engineering ensures that when the tolerances all go the wrong way disaster is still avoided.
Imagine a two by four. They are not all the same size. Your buddy puts a two by four over the nearby creek and walks across it successfully. Maybe you and all of your friends do it as well. Is this a good design? What about a different two by four? Are they all the same thickness? Are they all from the same wood? What happens when your 300 pound brother in law tries? This is simple and obvious. Designing every piece of a gun to work and then making them all work together well has to be very tricky, I would not want to try it.
Good engineers get surprised. Guns (and cars and lawnmowers) have hundreds or thousands of parts. You cannot test every possible combination of possible part sizes. Experience and judgement and worst case tests are important, but how do you know that you truly tested "worst case?"
This leads to a manufacturer making 100,000, or 1,000,000 of something and most work beautifully but a few fail in surprising ways. Sometimes the manufacturer can find a clear cut cause and create a solid fix. Sometimes it is elusive. The good manufacturers go to the mat trying to fix problems. Smith may have done this, our guns came back working well. I don't know. But the fact that your Smith 22 has never experienced this does not prove that the person who has experienced it is a liar or a "Bubba."
Imagine a two by four. They are not all the same size. Your buddy puts a two by four over the nearby creek and walks across it successfully. Maybe you and all of your friends do it as well. Is this a good design? What about a different two by four? Are they all the same thickness? Are they all from the same wood? What happens when your 300 pound brother in law tries? This is simple and obvious. Designing every piece of a gun to work and then making them all work together well has to be very tricky, I would not want to try it.
Good engineers get surprised. Guns (and cars and lawnmowers) have hundreds or thousands of parts. You cannot test every possible combination of possible part sizes. Experience and judgement and worst case tests are important, but how do you know that you truly tested "worst case?"
This leads to a manufacturer making 100,000, or 1,000,000 of something and most work beautifully but a few fail in surprising ways. Sometimes the manufacturer can find a clear cut cause and create a solid fix. Sometimes it is elusive. The good manufacturers go to the mat trying to fix problems. Smith may have done this, our guns came back working well. I don't know. But the fact that your Smith 22 has never experienced this does not prove that the person who has experienced it is a liar or a "Bubba."
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Blackstuff
Member
Just hold the shot timer near to the ejection port?! Its less dangerous all round, sets the RO behind the ejection port and also keeps them out of the line of sight of the shooter. As fullbore semi-auto rifles are banned in the UK we have to do action/practical/IPSC style shooting with .22's and we rarely have issues with the shot timer not picking up the sound from the ejection port (normally caused by either the shooter using low power ammo or the shot timer being calibrated for shotgun and not being reset for .22)
dogzebra
Member
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I was shooting a .22's on the 50 yard range, when another shooter came along and started setting up his highly customized 10/22.
He fired a a few rounds, then his rifle started firing out of battery. The way he was cussing at his 10/22 got my attention. By the time I got to him he'd collected five blown out .22 cases. He cussed the ammo, the guy that helped him with this build and Ruger... but the only stock Ruger part I saw on that gun was its receiver.
As I picked up his brass to examine it, I noticed a small spring laying on the table. It looked similar to an extractor claw spring. The extractor was acting as a second firing pin. After showing him the spring, his face took on a deer in the headlamp look.
I told him his custom gun was broken and asked the guy to stop shooting it 'til someone actually fixes it.
He fired a a few rounds, then his rifle started firing out of battery. The way he was cussing at his 10/22 got my attention. By the time I got to him he'd collected five blown out .22 cases. He cussed the ammo, the guy that helped him with this build and Ruger... but the only stock Ruger part I saw on that gun was its receiver.
As I picked up his brass to examine it, I noticed a small spring laying on the table. It looked similar to an extractor claw spring. The extractor was acting as a second firing pin. After showing him the spring, his face took on a deer in the headlamp look.
I told him his custom gun was broken and asked the guy to stop shooting it 'til someone actually fixes it.
Here's my OOBD
I've got an older (8 years?? Maybe older!) 15-22 that has 1000's of rd thru it. Mostly trouble free. Last weekend, I was out with it for the first time in a year or so. Put 30 rd of Fed Champion and 30 rd of Win Super X thru it without any issues, as expected.
Then, I found it's old favorite...now don't choke on anything...Remington GB!!
I know, not the best ammo. But, this rifle has always liked it for some reason. Better than most el-cheapo plinking stuff.
Anyway, I put 10 rd thru it (with 2 failures to ignite) and then loaded up another 10. Round #3 went ka-boom! Noticeably louder, and debris flying out the side of the gun. Wouldn't be so bad...if I weren't left handed. Debris not as bad as I make it sound, I was using a brass catcher...hey, I like to leave the range as clean as possible and, I also recycle the brass with my spent primers.
I put in a call to S&W, but they are closed til Jan. 2nd. Some "blast" and small particles still made it out, but the bag caught most of the parts...luckily.
Oh, that other case, just happened to find it while checking the bag for parts. It too is a Rem case.
I've got an older (8 years?? Maybe older!) 15-22 that has 1000's of rd thru it. Mostly trouble free. Last weekend, I was out with it for the first time in a year or so. Put 30 rd of Fed Champion and 30 rd of Win Super X thru it without any issues, as expected.
Then, I found it's old favorite...now don't choke on anything...Remington GB!!
I know, not the best ammo. But, this rifle has always liked it for some reason. Better than most el-cheapo plinking stuff.
Anyway, I put 10 rd thru it (with 2 failures to ignite) and then loaded up another 10. Round #3 went ka-boom! Noticeably louder, and debris flying out the side of the gun. Wouldn't be so bad...if I weren't left handed. Debris not as bad as I make it sound, I was using a brass catcher...hey, I like to leave the range as clean as possible and, I also recycle the brass with my spent primers.
I put in a call to S&W, but they are closed til Jan. 2nd. Some "blast" and small particles still made it out, but the bag caught most of the parts...luckily.
Oh, that other case, just happened to find it while checking the bag for parts. It too is a Rem case.
Attachments
I found it a little ironic that this Notice came out the day after I received mine back from Smith and Wesson. I sent it in several weeks ago for an out of battery discharge. I receive mine back and then I read about how every gun manufactured before February 1, 2019 may be affected. Mine is a very early (2nd year production). Coincidence? I know mine is not the first to have an out of battery discharge but still…
Squarebutt
Member
S&W knows they have a problem and are offering to inspect any bolt assembly. Also, there is a small gage that can measure the problem area and determine if it was machined to specification. There's a video, but I wasn't able to find it right now.
giddydog
Member
Known issue
S & W sent out an email about 2 days ago saying that all 15/22s manufactured during a certain window need inspected for improperly machined bolts.
I did not save the email since it didn't apply to me so I don't remember teh manufacture dates listed.
S & W sent out an email about 2 days ago saying that all 15/22s manufactured during a certain window need inspected for improperly machined bolts.
I did not save the email since it didn't apply to me so I don't remember teh manufacture dates listed.
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