dakasat
Member
I just picked up and found a 625-6 4" in .45 Colt. I'm wondering if it is safe to shoot the Georgia Arms 260 grain JHP +P. This ammo is rated at 1200 fps. Any opinions would be appreciated...
dakasat
dakasat
+P ammo in 625-6 .45 Colt mountain Gun
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Gary7
Member
Same frame as the 629 44 Magnum, so I'd say it will handle 45 +P loads with no problem.
JT
Member
Geez ... get a Ruger and save your Smith for milder loads.
Same frame as the 629, but different heat treatment. The 625 .45 Colt Mountain Gun is an excellent revolver. I have one and it is one of my favorites, but it is not a magnum. Will it safely fire the +p loads? Most probably, but it will end up battered into early retirement. JT is right, get a Ruger for the really hot stuff.
Dale53
Member
John Linebaugh's articles on loading heavy .45 Colt's will have the information you desire. The S&W will not take "Ruger Only" loads but can be loaded to give excellent results for deer. John's wife uses an S&W for hunting deer and antelope.
John carries a Smith .45 Colt on a daily basis. Scroll down to the bottom of the article for his comments on the Smith. I tend toward the conservative side of the coin and John's suggestions to hold the load's at 5% below the listed loads sounds good to me.
Linebaugh's Custom Sixguns - Heavyweight Bullets
FWIW
Dale53
John carries a Smith .45 Colt on a daily basis. Scroll down to the bottom of the article for his comments on the Smith. I tend toward the conservative side of the coin and John's suggestions to hold the load's at 5% below the listed loads sounds good to me.
Linebaugh's Custom Sixguns - Heavyweight Bullets
FWIW
Dale53
Mine get a steady diet of 335gr @ 1150. They are much more than led to believe. Ticks me off when people complain of Smiths' being soft or weak. Be reasonable and they will take more than the average guy will put them through. Give up the keys to the Subaru, vote for the working man, and shoot some plus P's in your Smith. It feels good to be a man..........Good shooting.......Sprefix
Shooting4life
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I have a 25-5 in 45lc and I am sure those loads would be ok. however, I am a 3 screw ruger that I would shoot them in and save my smith for the cream puff 900 fps loads
pinkymingeo
Member
What do you intend to shoot that 260gr at 1200fps will kill, but the same bullet at, say, 1000fps won't kill?
KurtC
Member
Most ammunition manufacturers will tell you if their product is safe in a S&W, so I would certainly check with them.
From personal experience with Mountain Guns and +P ammo, I can tell you that your hand will probably give out before the pistol does.
From personal experience with Mountain Guns and +P ammo, I can tell you that your hand will probably give out before the pistol does.
Gary7
Member
Marshall 357
Member
I didnt know S&W revolvers are not as stronge as Rugers untill I came to this forum.I read S&W have forged frames,Rugers have cast frames. I know Rugers have a lot more meat on them but why are Smiths loooked down on when in come to shooting hot and heavy loads? I have being shooting light loads out of my 29-3 8 3/8'' because its tight as a drum and I want to keep it that way. How about some light on the subject ? Its not like Im going to shoot 200 rd of full power Magnum Loads thru it everyday, Dont think I could,LOL!
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aterry33
Member
For what it's worth, I've talked to the folks at Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc., and they recommend standard pressure 45LC in Smith&Wesson's, and +P for Rugers and other hulking revolvers.
Stu454
Member
It's not the strength of the metal as much as the weaknesses in a century-old design.
In limited use it's probably fine. Don't be surprised if it's needs service sooner rather than later.
In limited use it's probably fine. Don't be surprised if it's needs service sooner rather than later.
Allen-frame
Member
Saturday I shot my 625-7 Mountain gun with my 250gr. r.n.f.p.
loaded at 900 or so f.p.s. I think it was 9 grs. of Unique.
It was a snappier load than the 'cowboy'loads I shoot and with wood
grips I wouldn't want to shoot anything hotter unless hunting.
Start with cowboy loads and work up from there.
The fun in shooting a 45 Colt revolver is the big 'thump' then
that big slug flying downrange.
You can hot rod Smiths in 45 ,but why make it into a 44 Magnum
unless you're hunting or defending yourself with it?
Regards ,,Allen
loaded at 900 or so f.p.s. I think it was 9 grs. of Unique.
It was a snappier load than the 'cowboy'loads I shoot and with wood
grips I wouldn't want to shoot anything hotter unless hunting.
Start with cowboy loads and work up from there.
The fun in shooting a 45 Colt revolver is the big 'thump' then
that big slug flying downrange.
You can hot rod Smiths in 45 ,but why make it into a 44 Magnum
unless you're hunting or defending yourself with it?
Regards ,,Allen
Gary7
Member
Exactly. Can an N-Frame 45 safely shoot reasonably hot loads? Of course. Will a steady diet of hot loads loosen it up faster than shooting standard loads? Of course. And that is true no matter what caliber N-Frame we're talking about.
But all else being equal, 45 LC loads that are not any hotter than moderate 44 Mag loads are not going to be any more detrimental to an N-Frame than those same 44 Mag loads would be, IMO.
devildog66
Member
+1 for the recommendation to read this article! Very informative and the power is not the issue it is the pressure and Linebaugh dispenses some solid knowledge on the matter.
Gary7
Member
A quote from that article:
In reality the Model 25-5 is about 80% as strong as the Model 29 in the cylinder area. The frames are the same and are designed for a 40,000 psi load level even though we know this is a bit more than they are happy with. It's too bad S&W built a 40,000 psi cylinder and installed it in a 30,000 psi frame, so to speak.
Clearly, there is a typo in the last sentence which should read "It's too bad S&W built a 30,000 psi cylinder and installed it in a 40,000 psi frame, so to speak." So the "weak link" in an N-Frame 45 is the cylinder, not the frame.
Jack Flash
Member
This makes sense. I can't believe that S&W has separate heat treating for N-Frames and their cylinders, depending on what caliber they are. It seems like such a system would be terribly error-prone and require much more effort than just doing them all the same at the same time. If anyone has any reliable information to the contrary, please speak up.
I would not hesitate to occaisionally shoot .45 Colt +P through a MODERN S&W. If I frequently required that power level, I would get a Ruger or better still just get a Model 29 and be done with it.
Gary7
Member
I'm sure they don't. But the chamber walls of a 45 cylinder are considerably thinner than those on a 44 cylinder, hence they can't handle as high a pressure as the 44 cylinder. Put another way, the cylinder on an N-Frame 357 can no doubt safely handle 60,000+ psi but an N-Frame 44 with that same pressure would be a time bomb and an N-Frame 45 would surely kaboom after a few rounds at that pressure.
Per John Linebaugh:
"While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun. The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft. With loads that exceed what the gun can comfortably handle the frame stretches immediately lengthwise and then springs back. This all causes battering and soon your gun has excessive endshake. I don't know how long it takes to wreck a N frame S&W with heavy handloads but Jeff Cooper printed one time he saw a model 29 go out in the realm of 1,000 hot handloads if I remember correctly. I would agree that serious damage could be done in this amount of shooting with too heavy a handload.
The bearing surfaces on the front and rear of the cylinder in the DA guns just aren't as massive as the single action guns and the lock-up system isn't near as rigid as the single action base pin system.
In short, several small parts can't be expected to stand up as well as a few heavy parts."
John Linebaugh has also stated that he keeps his loads in the S&W .45s to around 25,000 psi max. A 625 will do almost anything you need it to do with a 260 grain bullet moving at around 900-1000 fps. Why batter your gun needlessly?
"While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun. The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft. With loads that exceed what the gun can comfortably handle the frame stretches immediately lengthwise and then springs back. This all causes battering and soon your gun has excessive endshake. I don't know how long it takes to wreck a N frame S&W with heavy handloads but Jeff Cooper printed one time he saw a model 29 go out in the realm of 1,000 hot handloads if I remember correctly. I would agree that serious damage could be done in this amount of shooting with too heavy a handload.
The bearing surfaces on the front and rear of the cylinder in the DA guns just aren't as massive as the single action guns and the lock-up system isn't near as rigid as the single action base pin system.
In short, several small parts can't be expected to stand up as well as a few heavy parts."
John Linebaugh has also stated that he keeps his loads in the S&W .45s to around 25,000 psi max. A 625 will do almost anything you need it to do with a 260 grain bullet moving at around 900-1000 fps. Why batter your gun needlessly?
Gary7
Member
Jack Flash
Member
Wow! Who ever suggested that a S&W .45 cylinder could handle .44 Mag pressures?
Go back through the posts and you will see that someone suggested the heat treatment is different for the .45 Colt than it is for the .44 Mag. From my limited experiences in a manufacturing environment, I politely suggested that this is a very dubious proposition. I stand by that statement until someone offers reliable proof to the contrary.
Then I talked about the wisdom of firing .45 Colt +P through a modern S&W. I said I believe this would not be a problem, especially if done in moderation. Again, I stand by that statement.
I base this second comment on a simple observation. While I am not going to the safe to dig out revolvers to make measurements, I believe the chamber walls for a S&W .45 Colt must be very close, if not equal, to the chamber walls of a S&W .45 ACP revolver. The SAAMI Max for .45 ACP is 21,000 psi. IIRC, S&W .approves its modern .45 ACP revolvers for +P, so they can handle over the Standard SAAMI max for .45 ACP. Therefore, a modern S&W .45 Colt revolver can handle considerably more than the Standard SAAMI limit for the ancient .45 Colt.
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Gary7
Member
batmann
Member
Double Amen to the cylinder wall thickness. It's usually not the frame that goes, but the cylinder. Using +P loads might be done but most ammo companies don't recommend it. IF you have any doubts what so ever, call and they will give as good of an answer that they can.
One of the reasons Ruger's shoot heavier loads is both the cylinder wall thickness and the top strap not the action or method of construction. Ruger had the advantage of starting with a blank sheet of paper.
One of the reasons Ruger's shoot heavier loads is both the cylinder wall thickness and the top strap not the action or method of construction. Ruger had the advantage of starting with a blank sheet of paper.
JT
Member
I don't know who Mr. Linebaugh is, but I'm calling BS on this one.
Man, that takes some big ones to call out Mr. Linebaugh, a world-class gunsmith who has forgotten more about handgun engineering than all of us forum members put together.
Heres another quote from...
Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5
John Linebaugh said:
Sounds to me that its the topstrap that is the difference, not the cylinder.
Although Id really like to hear it from S&W, theres no way they'd accept the liability telling you that its ok to fire anything other than SAAMI spec loads. Sticking to the loads that Linebaugh suggests should be fine by the pressure numbers he states.
Has anyone contacted BuffaloBore or Dakota and asked what "pressure" their +p loads generate ?
k.
stiab
US Veteran
And yet this is the very reason most often given for why a J frame model 60 no dash cannot handle the same high pressures that a J frame 940 no dash can, even though they use the same non-magnum frame. If the 940 can handle 35K and the Model 60 only 18.5K, how else would you explain the difference if it was not heat treatment?
The Model 547 is another one in the same category. Why can it as a K frame withstand 35K and the seemingly identical K frame Model 15 not cope with that category of pressure (hence it was not chambered in .357 Magnum)? The Standard Catalog seems to indicate there are differences within the same frame sizes. It speaks of the M547 frames later being used to make a .357 guns.
bwickens
Member
As I recall, without rereading the whole book, Elmer Keith wrote in "Hell, I Was There" that the extra metal in the cylinder walls was why he switched from .45 to .44 when experimenting with heavy loads, having blown up a .45 or two.
gaucho1
Member
Cumulative wear on the smaller parts is the issue, not topstraps and
cylinders letting go. Even if the big parts can tale it, the rest of the gun
will wear faster.
cylinders letting go. Even if the big parts can tale it, the rest of the gun
will wear faster.
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