Revolver-time
Member
I just got a 36-1. Is it okay to carry it with 38+P, like the Remington 110 grain +P ammo? It will only see 38 WC most of the time. But when I carry it I would like to use hotter stuff.
+P in 36-1
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badge 851
US Veteran
You can have your cake and eat it too; with this..........
• Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
This load gives you the speed and knockdown power of a +P load; without the higher pressure.
ogilvyspecial
Member
That's what I carry in my 36-2..........
squidsix
Member
Today's "+P" loadings are nothing close to the old normal .38 special loads from the 50s. You can't get factory loads that are going to break your 36.
badge 851
US Veteran
IMHO: That is a great practice load, it is not, however; a great self defense load. There are good standard pressure 38 Special self defense loadings available.
papajohn428
Member
The time-tested FBI load, a 158-grain lead hollow-point, is still working fine in most guns, and most Serious Social Situations. It's available from several makers in both standard pressure loads and Plus-P versions.
I've been told that any S&W revolver with a model number (produced post 1957) is able to handle Plus-P loads, though with the J-frames I'd use standard pressure loads for practice, and carry the hotter stuff for defensive use. It works for me.
I've been told that any S&W revolver with a model number (produced post 1957) is able to handle Plus-P loads, though with the J-frames I'd use standard pressure loads for practice, and carry the hotter stuff for defensive use. It works for me.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I carry Federal Nyclad ammo in my M36 no-dash. I have carried and shot the FBI load in that revolver too but the Nyclad ammo is very accurate in my M36 so that's what it gets...
Erich
Member
My 36-1 is usually carried (on hikes) with pre-SAAMI-spec +P++ gawshawful handloads that throw a 158-grain hardcast bullet at 1185 fps from the 3" tube. I rarely shoot those, but I almost never shoot it with anything below +P level in the gun. It's fine.
Of course, my gun might be more robust than yours, so I can't say how yours will react. Based on my experience and writings going back to Keith, though, I would not worry at all about using +P in a 36-1.
Of course, my gun might be more robust than yours, so I can't say how yours will react. Based on my experience and writings going back to Keith, though, I would not worry at all about using +P in a 36-1.
Maximumbob54
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We had a thread that had chrono results of magnum vs. special ammo from short barrels. That showed that while you do get a good increase in velocity from magnum, it still dumps serious speed from the short barrel.
But do we have a thread with chrono results that show real value in standard vs. +P or even +P+?
From the serious drop in velocity that magnums suffer, I'm curious if +P is even really worth use in a snub with the short barrel to burn the minor amount of extra powder. In a three inch tube I would think it would show, but in a 1 3/4" tube??? How big of a difference can we be talking about here???
But do we have a thread with chrono results that show real value in standard vs. +P or even +P+?
From the serious drop in velocity that magnums suffer, I'm curious if +P is even really worth use in a snub with the short barrel to burn the minor amount of extra powder. In a three inch tube I would think it would show, but in a 1 3/4" tube??? How big of a difference can we be talking about here???
Erich
Member
Hi Bob,
There are quite a few threads on which I've posted data about various handloads from 1 7/8", 3", 4", and 6" barrels. Some of those handloads are +P and some are standard pressure. Don't know whether the threads are still searchable, as they might have happened before the archives got seriously cleaned out.
Here's a for-instance (an old, pre-SAAMI-spec .38 Spl handload using 2400 and a 195-gr RNL hardcast; 5950' above sea level, 60% humidity, 74°F) that I found with a quick search:
Model 36 1 7/8" barrel: M 844.2/ES 35.83/SD 12.72
Det. Spl. 2 1/8" barrel: M 871.2/ES 28.29/SD13.49
Model 36-1 3" barrel: M 941.0/ES 32.50/SD 15.79
Model 15 4" barrel: M 973.2/ES 16.65/SD 6.32
Model 14-3 6" barrel: M 1030/ES 22.02/SD 9.53
Anyhow, the info is out there.
There are quite a few threads on which I've posted data about various handloads from 1 7/8", 3", 4", and 6" barrels. Some of those handloads are +P and some are standard pressure. Don't know whether the threads are still searchable, as they might have happened before the archives got seriously cleaned out.
Here's a for-instance (an old, pre-SAAMI-spec .38 Spl handload using 2400 and a 195-gr RNL hardcast; 5950' above sea level, 60% humidity, 74°F) that I found with a quick search:
Model 36 1 7/8" barrel: M 844.2/ES 35.83/SD 12.72
Det. Spl. 2 1/8" barrel: M 871.2/ES 28.29/SD13.49
Model 36-1 3" barrel: M 941.0/ES 32.50/SD 15.79
Model 15 4" barrel: M 973.2/ES 16.65/SD 6.32
Model 14-3 6" barrel: M 1030/ES 22.02/SD 9.53
Anyhow, the info is out there.
Steve in Vermont
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Ditto my M36.
And that in my opinion is the key to all of this. I can and have run some very hot loads through my J-Frame but if I'm going to miss high, or take extra time to get back to the ready due to the recoil, what good does it do to have souped-up ammo?
Find a load that is repeatably and consistently accurate, I say.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Quite a bit, actually, sometimes as much as 100 FPS. A three-inch barrel adds about 75 FPS to that.
As for the man who posted that RN lead ammo is all that you need, be careful about what advice you get on the Net. If that statement was true, there'd have been no need for Plus P and expanding bullets. In fact, they generate considerably greater chance of stopping an opponent.
As for your 36-1, I've owned a couple, and now own a M-60-4, which is factory Rated for Plus P. I'd suggest using Plus P as needed and for occasional practice. I had no problems with it, but it will shake a J-frame loose sooner than standard ammo will.
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mkk41
US Veteran
Some of the worst advice I've ever seen here.
That load was a notoriously poor stopper , even worse than a 9mm FMJ and is said to have cost many an old time cop his life because of it's failure to stop a determined criminal.
Texas Star
US Veteran
The time-tested FBI load, a 158-grain lead hollow-point, is still working fine in most guns, and most Serious Social Situations. It's available from several makers in both standard pressure loads and Plus-P versions.
I've been told that any S&W revolver with a model number (produced post 1957) is able to handle Plus-P loads, though with the J-frames I'd use standard pressure loads for practice, and carry the hotter stuff for defensive use. It works for me.
What'd you shoot those bullets into? The middle one does look like some that I've seen from water tests.
One gun writer said that water tests are pretty close to what he sees from bullets recovered from animals that he's shot.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
That round is the reason why many believe the .38 Special is a poor self defense round. It was nicknamed "The Widow Maker" and with good reason, it did not stop the bad-guy... It wasn't the .38 special that failed, it was the bullet they were using. Modern bullets are much better and do the job they are intended to do, stop the bad-guy...
Terrible advice like in the quote is why you should check and double check any information you get from the Internet.
papajohn428
Member
Those were fired into wetpack or water-filled milk jugs at 7 yards. The ones that separated were shot into wetpack, and the added resistance caused them to come apart, I generally see half the penetration in wetpack that I see in gelatin or water.
For those looking for a lighter-recoiling bullet that still expands, the Hornady Critical Defense is pretty good stuff, though it's a Plus-P load. Recovered bullets look just like the advertising copy.....every time! I like it enough to carry in several off-duty guns, in several calibers. The 40S&W load may be the best one yet!
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I carry the BB 158 grain +P gas-checked hollow points in my j-frames. According to BB's website, this load chronoed 1040fps in a two-inch Model 60, which is what I carry most of the time. To me, this moves the 60/36 2" guns into serious self defence territory, as opposed to the old ammo. There is a substantial velocity/energy increase when moving from a 2" to a 3" barrel. They claim 1143 fps from a Ruger 3" SP101. The original poster mentioned a 36-1, which is the 3" version of the Chiefs Special. As someone pointed out, there have been similar results posted here by a couple of members.
The BB "heavy +P" 158 grain load shoots to POA from 15 feet in my 2" and 3" j-frames, and it isn't really that unpleasant to shoot.
Erich
Member
As a kid just starting carrying, I was swayed by the muzzle energy considerations discussed so prominently in the gunwritings of the time, and I simply looked for the load with the highest muzzle energy available. The most +P load that gun would take - that's what I wanted. I didn't think that there might be a difference in velocity from the published numbers (They were published! Wasn't there some sort of a truth-in-advertising law that forbade making false claims?) and that developed with the load in question through my gun. I didn't think that you'd have to hit a particular area to stop someone - these two guys were talking about one-shot-stop percentages, and they were published! I knew that the load that I carried had a 69% chance of one shot stopping the bad guy. I didn't think a thing about penetration - over- or under- - I just knew that my bullet had to have a hollow point, because then it would open up the way they did in those "duct seal" tests that Dean Grennell (may he rest in peace 
) did - it might start out a .357, but it was going to end up a .639"! 
As you all know, what I carry has changed over the years due to contemplating what I read in articles, what I hear from hunters, what I see at work, and what I learn from handloading. I thought that it might be worth reflecting on some of these lessons. I'd love to hear if you had similar thoughts.
1. Handgun bullets stop assailants by hitting and damaging vital structures, not by having lots of oomph at the muzzle or by expanding. Obviously, you need a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough and will fly accurately enough to hit that vital structure. A superfast, high energy bullet into a nonvital area may freak out an aggressor enough to stop him, but there's no physiological guarantee that it will. (Killing is different - the person may well die later, but we're concerned with stopping, of course.)
Since precise shot-placement into a vital structure is not a guarantee, it would be helpful to shoot a round that is easily controlled and allows fast follow-up shots by the person shooting it. As a handloader and someone who's decently comfortable financially, I can assure you that I've practiced a sufficient amount with all of the spicy loads (or their ballistic duplicates) that I might think to carry. (I've got a handload that slightly exceeds the performance of the +P Buffalo Bore 158-gr load, for instance - does 1085 fps from my 1 7/8" guns, IIRC.) Something to think about is: Are you sure of where those spicy loads are hitting from your gun and how fast can you get the second and third ones off with accuracy? I'd suggest that knowing your load from your gun is a heck of a lot more important than carrying the load with the most possible oomph, if that means that you have never fired enough rounds to truly familiarize yourself with its performance.
2. "+P" means that a given loading is loaded to greater pressure - above the base .38 Spl pressure that SAAMI decreed in 1973 in acknowledgement to the absolute baseline of .38 Special handgun ability going back to the black powder days of the cartridge. +P does not mean that any given round kicks more than any given standard pressure round. It doesn't mean that it has more flash. It doesn't mean that it has more velocity or better performance. It certainly can mean any of these things, but a 110-gr +P load may well impart less perceived recoil than a 158-gr standard velocity load - it's just physics. And a 158-grain standard velocity load might well deliver the mail a whole heck of a lot better than a 95-gr +P load (my first carry load back in the '80s, the Winchester +P 95-grain Silvertip, essentially turned my snub .38 into a five-shot .380
).
Rather than simply looking at numbers and buying the fastest, heaviest Cor-Buffalo-Tap round that fits the gun and purportedly makes pressure specs, a person would be well served to consider what he's wanting the gun to do. Is this a woods load for which overpenetration isn't an issue, or is it something I'm intending to use for defensive purposes in town? Will this bullet from this loading from this gun penetrate sufficiently to reach the heart/aorta or brain? (Do I even know where those structures are located in a human being?) How would it work in barriers I might encounter - how did the round do from a similar gun in the FBI protocols? Can I control my aluminum J-frame .38 for a follow-up shot with this load? How does it hit from my gun - have I shot enough of it to say for certain? Can I legitimately say that I've practiced with it - given my practice with it, would I be rational to take a ten-yard headshot on someone holding my wife hostage?
) did - it might start out a .357, but it was going to end up a .639"! As you all know, what I carry has changed over the years due to contemplating what I read in articles, what I hear from hunters, what I see at work, and what I learn from handloading. I thought that it might be worth reflecting on some of these lessons. I'd love to hear if you had similar thoughts.
1. Handgun bullets stop assailants by hitting and damaging vital structures, not by having lots of oomph at the muzzle or by expanding. Obviously, you need a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough and will fly accurately enough to hit that vital structure. A superfast, high energy bullet into a nonvital area may freak out an aggressor enough to stop him, but there's no physiological guarantee that it will. (Killing is different - the person may well die later, but we're concerned with stopping, of course.)
Since precise shot-placement into a vital structure is not a guarantee, it would be helpful to shoot a round that is easily controlled and allows fast follow-up shots by the person shooting it. As a handloader and someone who's decently comfortable financially, I can assure you that I've practiced a sufficient amount with all of the spicy loads (or their ballistic duplicates) that I might think to carry. (I've got a handload that slightly exceeds the performance of the +P Buffalo Bore 158-gr load, for instance - does 1085 fps from my 1 7/8" guns, IIRC.) Something to think about is: Are you sure of where those spicy loads are hitting from your gun and how fast can you get the second and third ones off with accuracy? I'd suggest that knowing your load from your gun is a heck of a lot more important than carrying the load with the most possible oomph, if that means that you have never fired enough rounds to truly familiarize yourself with its performance.
2. "+P" means that a given loading is loaded to greater pressure - above the base .38 Spl pressure that SAAMI decreed in 1973 in acknowledgement to the absolute baseline of .38 Special handgun ability going back to the black powder days of the cartridge. +P does not mean that any given round kicks more than any given standard pressure round. It doesn't mean that it has more flash. It doesn't mean that it has more velocity or better performance. It certainly can mean any of these things, but a 110-gr +P load may well impart less perceived recoil than a 158-gr standard velocity load - it's just physics. And a 158-grain standard velocity load might well deliver the mail a whole heck of a lot better than a 95-gr +P load (my first carry load back in the '80s, the Winchester +P 95-grain Silvertip, essentially turned my snub .38 into a five-shot .380
). Rather than simply looking at numbers and buying the fastest, heaviest Cor-Buffalo-Tap round that fits the gun and purportedly makes pressure specs, a person would be well served to consider what he's wanting the gun to do. Is this a woods load for which overpenetration isn't an issue, or is it something I'm intending to use for defensive purposes in town? Will this bullet from this loading from this gun penetrate sufficiently to reach the heart/aorta or brain? (Do I even know where those structures are located in a human being?) How would it work in barriers I might encounter - how did the round do from a similar gun in the FBI protocols? Can I control my aluminum J-frame .38 for a follow-up shot with this load? How does it hit from my gun - have I shot enough of it to say for certain? Can I legitimately say that I've practiced with it - given my practice with it, would I be rational to take a ten-yard headshot on someone holding my wife hostage?
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