+P question

[Alpo]

I don't come to this forum often, so if this question has been asked frequently, I apologize for asking it again


I have two J frames. The barrels are marked 38 Spl +P, so I have no worries about them. I have five K frame 38s. These I wonder about.


I have a 2" M&P from the 30s.666xxx number. I have a Victory. I have a "pre-10" - 1956. I've got a heavy barrel 10, and a 14 K38.


Normally I feed all of them 158 grain lead at less than + P velocity. But if I wanted to use +P in any of these, are they safe? Is there a cutoff date where "below this number it is unsafe, but above this is perfectly fine"?

 

[murphydog]

Lots of opinions on this, which you will see shortly .

All model stamped, steel K frame .38 Specials are good with + P. I would probably count your very late pre-10 in this. There is some debate as to what pressures "standard" .38 Special used to generate but from personal experience none of the current major factory + P seems all that hot.

That said, I would not use large amount of + P in your '30s M & P and Victory Model - especially since you have three perfectly fine later bullet launchers for that. The early ones will not blow up and firing a few warmer rounds will do no harm.

 

[Pisgah]

+P loads are safe in all the revolvers you mention, in the sense that all of them will handle it without blowing up or otherwise endangering the shooter. Being loaded to slightly higher pressures, extensive use of +P ammo will wear out any handgun slightly faster than will standard-pressure ammo.

 

[Alpo]

Murphydog - All model stamped steel K frame .38 Specials.
Stamped steel?


Please explain that term. Because what comes to mind is "stamped parts" instead of "forged and machined parts". And I've always thought that stamped are weaker then forged and machined.

 

[delcrossv]

Model stamped, steel frame.

 

[Muley Gil]

Alpo, is your 2" pre-war a pre Victory without the barrel lug or does it have a barrel lug that engages the end of the ejector rod when the cylinder is closed? If no barrel lug, I would only fire standard 158 grain round nose lead or 148 grain wadcutter out of it.

 

[rct269]

SOME'S GOOD, MORE'S BETTER, AND TOO MUCH IS JUST RIGHT!!

There was a time, early 1930's---call it Pre-.357 Magnum (except I'll give you some Magnum numbers for comparison), when there was a REAL hot rod .38 Special cartridge. They called it .38 Special Hi-Speed. Here are some numbers to put things in proper perspective: Regular everyday .38 Special--Muzzle Velocity 870 fps, Muzzle Energy 266 ft. lbs.. .38 Special Hi-Speed---Muzzle Velocity 1,115 fps, Muzzle Energy 436 ft. lbs.. .357 Magnum---Muzzle Velocity 1,510 fps, Muzzle Energy 800 ft. lbs. All this is with regular everyday 158 grain lead bullets.

Now all these numbers are from back when---early 30's (Magnum numbers from the mid 30's). Now I neither know nor care what today's numbers are---although I suspect they're less---and I haven't the first clue what +P numbers are, but I'll bet money---pretty much any amount you'd care to lay down on the table, that today's +P .38 Special stuff is fairly tame compared to yesterday's .38 Special Hi-Speed----and the point of all this gobbledygook is +P .38 Special can be SAFELY used in anything it'll fit in.

I hear these folks who speak of wearing guns out sooner with a steady diet of +P's. I can't argue with that---partially because it makes some sense, but I've never seen a worn out gun.

I think you need to consider the origin of +P ammunition. I think it's probably pretty much the same as that for fishing tackle. Now some folks will tell you fishing tackle is made to catch fish. Some other folks will tell you it's made to sell to fishermen. I think +P ammunition is made to sell to shooters. Let me know if you think it's made to do anything plain old everyday .38 Special won't do pretty much just as well----besides make a little more noise.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[goatsnguns]

I think he meant "Model stamped, steel K frame"

 

[murphydog]

Added the comma for dramatic effect.

 

[tenntex32]

Due to SAAMI specifications coming about well after the origins of the .38spl cartridge most reloaders feel that .38spl+P is basically the old original .38spl full power load.

And they feel that today's non +P .38spl loads are weaker than the original .38spl loads of old.

About the only revolvers I would be leery of loading modern jacketed +P loads in would be the earliest .38spl revolvers that were built when lead bullets and black powder were the only .38spl loads available.

And most likely that would be due to an over abundance of caution.

When you look at European .38spl loads many times they do not even mention +P as it is a SAAMI designation and not a European term. The European .38spl loads will typically be what our +P 38spl loads will be rated at due to them loading it to at/near it's original specifications.

I want to say some European manufacturers who sell ammo in the U.S. have now started marking their full power .38spl loads as +P due to us Americans expecting it to say something like that lest we consider it a "weak" load.

I have read where some folks in law enforcement witnesses cracked forcing cones on some older revolvers when using the super velocity/ultra high speed jacketed light weight bullet loads. We are talking unusually fast velocity jacketed light weight bullets here that older forcing cones may not have been designed for.

Dale

 

[Wiregrassguy]

European and SAAMI proof loads for .38 Special are 24,000 psi, IIRC. SAAMI specs for .38 Special standard are 17,000 psi (about 700-750 fps). .38 Special +P is 18-20,000 psi (about 800-900 fps).

 

[tenntex32]

European and SAAMI proof loads for .38 Special are 24,000 psi, IIRC. SAAMI specs for .38 Special standard are 17,000 psi (about 700-750 fps). .38 Special +P is 18-20,000 psi (about 800-900 fps).

Several years ago I bought some RWS .38spl (non+P marked) ammo form a local shop that dealt a lot with importing foreign ammo.

When I researched it online it was a 158gr fmj bullet moving at close to 950fps from a 4" vented barrel.

That's fairly hot by any U.S. standard, including our modern +P rating. (The U.S. military load for 4" Victory and Commando revolvers was a 158gr fmj bullet moving at around 850fps...……..and that would be considered a +P load today by many standards.)

And when shooting it from a 638 or 642 you could definitely feel the difference between it and U.S. made non+P ammo and it chronographed at over 900fps from the snubbies.

I have yet to ever see it again for sale here and can no longer find the info on the internet.

If I had to guess I would say that European ammo destined to be sold on our market now has some sort of non+P and +P rating system for us American consumers used to such......but I wouldn't always take that as a gospel knowing what little I know about it.

Dale

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Most of the foreign ammo I see has the velocity on the box whether or not they call it +P. I'm fairly sure they load it for our market.


I would like to find some cheap WWII .38 Ball and run some tests. I'll bet it is over 900 fps because that is around the velocity the original .38 Special BP round was designed for. SAAMI downgraded the pressures in the 1970's.

 

[tenntex32]

I would like to find some cheap WWII .38 Ball and run some tests. I'll bet it is over 900 fps because that is around the velocity the original .38 Special BP round was designed for. SAAMI downgraded the pressures in the 1970's.

Me too, but every so-called lead I've ever had on a complete box or two of the 158gr FMJ WWII era military loads didn't materialize. I'd love to know if it was truly 850fps as I have seen stated, or possibly even possibly faster as you indicate.

I feel the military load may be a tad slower with it's jacketed bullet versus the original BP load using a softer lead bullet...….but I guess we'll have to wait and see until I can chronograph some of the WWII military 158gr fmj fodder.

Dale

 

[larryofcc]

Why beat your old guns up? Get a 357 or 44 Magnum and have no worries. Big Larry

 

[tenntex32]

Not looking to beat up anything really.

As a handloader I find enjoyment in duplicating original spec loads in many of my older guns, whether it be handguns or rifles.

That being said why not just run .38spl and 44spl loads from those 357 and 44 magnums and not beat them up either?

D.

 

[larryofcc]

Not looking to beat up anything really.

As a handloader I find enjoyment in duplicating original spec loads in many of my older guns, whether it be handguns or rifles.

That being said why not just run .38spl and 44spl loads from those 357 and 44 magnums and not beat them up either?

D.

I do load my 357's and 44 Mags down to a comfortable level. I don't care much for muzzle blast. At 76 years, I find it way more comfortable to shoot my .22 pistols and revolvers. As an old Marine as yourself, I pretty much had my fill of loud noise as a tank driver, when we fired off the 90mm's and the 120mm's. Semper Fi Marine. Big Larry USMCR (60-68).

 

[Art Doc]

Any worry about mainstream +P ammo (usually a 125 JHP @ 925 FPS) is based on the fallacy that it is loaded to high pressure. It is not. I have shot a bunch of +P in many revolvers with no issues and my observation was that the cases did not even expand to seal the chambers and the cases came out with soot on the sides. This is a sign of low pressure, not high.

Since the 1970s ammo makers have reduced the power and pressure of the 38 ammo for fear of lawsuits if older (way older) guns blew up. When I was young standard 38 ammo was a 158 @ a claimed 870 (actually ran about 800 from a real gun). Now the 158 load is labeled at making 750 FPS. That's almost BB gun territory. Truly pathetic.

Many say +P is OK in model marked S&Ws. What is the difference between the last one made without the model stamp and the first one with it? None.

I am very leery of alloy frames. They fail way too often with all ammo. Had 2 alloy guns and sold them both.

Here's my 1942 M&P. One time for fun I ran 500 rounds of Remington +P and 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125 JHP @ 1150 FPS) through it. Of course, nothing happened.

But just to be safe I would limit the use of +P to no more than 25,000 rounds in your guns.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

1957, model-stamped, or 316648. Take your pick. Wear safety glasses no matter what you pick. Use only one hand to fire that safety hazard, and don't shoot unless your life depends on it. Sorry your life is so fragile, but so is mine.

 

[tenntex32]

I do load my 357's and 44 Mags down to a comfortable level. I don't care much for muzzle blast. At 76 years, I find it way more comfortable to shoot my .22 pistols and revolvers. As an old Marine as yourself, I pretty much had my fill of loud noise as a tank driver, when we fired off the 90mm's and the 120mm's. Semper Fi Marine. Big Larry USMCR (60-68).

Big L,

I hope I'm still throwing lead around if'n I reach 76.

Semper Fi,

Just Dale

USMC Active '89-'94

 

[Kenny D]

I had a model 10-6 with the heavy 4 inch barrel. Just for kicks, got some +P. Put 2 rounds in the cylinder with 4 regular rounds. I could tell when the +P fired as it was considerably louder but that was all. Never tried it in my much older revolvers as I only shoot wad cutters at paper with them.

 

[Muley Gil]

Has anyone fired any +P ammo through a converted BSR Victory that has been chopped and reamed?

 

[larryofcc]

Big L,

I hope I'm still throwing lead around if'n I reach 76.

Semper Fi,

Just Dale

USMC Active '89-'94

Thank you for your service to our country. Oorah, and Semper Fi to you too. Big Larry, also the Son of a Marine (1936-1957).

 

[Texas Star]

Art Doc and I have had some differing opinions about this matter. He posted above that Model-marked S&W's have no changes from pre Model-marked guns.


In 1960, famed holster maker Chic Gaylord noted in his, Handgunner's Guide that a S&W factory official had assured him that the Model 10-6 and presumably other K-frame .38 Specials were being made of a new and stronger steel and that the guns were stronger!

Gaylord was an advocate of Colt's Official Police, which was larger and had better metallurgy than S&W guns, so he felt this was important new information and included it in his book!

This jives perfectly with the factory's admonition to fire Plus P in STEEL framed guns with model markings, post 1958.

Now, the METHOD of measuring velocity has changed and this has led some shortsighted and uninformed persons to think the ammo was weakened. The reason for different figures published is that ammo is now fired in four-inch vented barrels, not in longer solid breeched pressure guns. So, velocities look slower on paper.

And what do we mean by Plus P? Buffalo Bore and Underwood offer significantly hotter Plus P than do most makers. I think it's folly to shoot those hot rounds in guns made before cylinders were heat treated after very late 1919. Actually, I'm not comfortable firing it in any S&W .38 made prior to 1958 when model markings appeared. And I'd use it sparingly when needed in modern guns. They'll last longer without repairs that way.

 

[Texas Star]

I had a model 10-6 with the heavy 4 inch barrel. Just for kicks, got some +P. Put 2 rounds in the cylinder with 4 regular rounds. I could tell when the +P fired as it was considerably louder but that was all. Never tried it in my much older revolvers as I only shoot wad cutters at paper with them.

Fine, but shooting at paper is not the arena in which Plus P ammo is intended to perform!

Shooting at flesh and blood animate targets takes more than "paper power" to deliver best results.

 

[Art Doc]

He discussed the 10-6 in a 1960 publication?

 

[Alpo]

Alpo, is your 2" pre-war a pre Victory without the barrel lug or does it have a barrel lug that engages the end of the ejector rod when the cylinder is closed? If no barrel lug, I would only fire standard 158 grain round nose lead or 148 grain wadcutter out of it.

I thought that quote would qualify as my 10 characters but apparently not.

 

[Alpo]

Model stamped, steel frame.

Ah. I was reading that as ALL MODELS OF STAMPED-STEEL K FRAMES, instead of ALL MODEL-STAMPED STEEL K FRAMES.


That does make a difference.

 

[Texas Star]

He discussed the 10-6 in a 1960 publication?

I don't think he said 10-6. He was discussing the heavy-barreled M&P. Most of us call it the Model 10-6 now.

The heavy barrel was fairly new then. He did show a photo.

 

[Art Doc]

I don't think he said 10-6. He was discussing the heavy-barreled M&P. Most of us call it the Model 10-6 now.

The heavy barrel was fairly new then. He did show a photo.

"In 1960, famed holster maker Chic Gaylord noted in his, Handgunner's Guide that a S&W factory official had assured him that the Model 10-6 and presumably other K-frame .38 Specials were being made of a new and stronger steel and that the guns were stronger!"

Looks like he said 10-6 to me. With regards to better steel, perhaps he was referring to the 357 Magnum 10-6? Of course, this still couldn't have happened in 1960. I have never heard of new and improved steel for the 38s in the late 1950s and frankly I doubt it happened. The quote says "presumably" and I think that's a false presumption.