+P Through a Model 12: THE TEST...is done!!!!

[Osprey]

Erich,

I understood your point with "The Load" through an Airweight J-frame; tough little guns! However, my new curiousity about "The Load" is this, what kind of velocities do you get with this load through 4, 6, even 8, inch guns of any weight?

Also, did that Speer #8 manual of magic spells have any recipes similar to "The Load," but using bullets heavier then 158?

... Osprey

 

[Erich]

Sorry about the thread-drift, but it IS your thread to drift as you'd like.

Last question first: I haven't messed with them.

First question (THE LOAD):

(5950'> sea level, 58°F)
1 7/8" tube: M 1086 fps/S 28.13/D 11.35
3": M 1185/S 44.68/S 19.02
4": 1230 fps/S 6.39/D 2.23 fps (!)
(same range, 48°F)
24": 1454/S 13.46/D 6.00

(I haven't shot them over a chronograph out of my 6" 14-2 - sorry!

)

Leaving aside the heat-generating question of whether shooting THE LOAD is advisable in .38 Spl revolvers (while it's worked for me, I can't say if it's safe in anyone else's guns - one must research it on his/her own, think for oneself and do what makes oneself comfortable - always remembering to be careful to follow safe reloading procedures and work up to any load), it does seem like a remarkably consistent loading - if someone wanted a low-stress-but-decently-powerful load for a .357 Magnum revolver, one could do very well with this one. (I'd note that many factory 158-gr .357 Magnum loadings produce more blast and less velocity than THE LOAD out of a given barrel length - for instance, the 3" tube threw a Magtech 158-gr bullet at 1115/36.33/13.78 on a slightly cooler 50° day and the same gun threw the 145-gr Mag STHP at 1167/42.93/17.97 that same day). But if you want top power out of a carbine, Lil' Gun seems to be the way to go (same bullet, M 2002 fps/S 19.52/D 8.66 - hard to beat them numbers, eh?

).

I only use Tennessee Valley Bullets hardcast 158-gr LSWCs with this . . . I've found that they seem to give me a bit more velocity than other cast bullets I've chrono'd over any given powder charge - and they're fairly cheap and made by a first-class guy and board member (nkjnut).

 

[rozenbem]

Osprey,

First of I'd like to thank you for going through this experiment. Impressive example of persistence in search of truth

Expanding on Erich's response RE: manual of magic spell's, the Speer #8 manual: I find it's exciting read. Note that there were (at least) 2 different printings of this manual – in 1970 and 1971; both are hosted on Paul's site. Some of the SR4756 loads are slightly different between the 2 printings (by 0.5 – 1 gr.) but THE LOAD is not changed.

THE LOAD is a starting charge of SR4756 for 158 gr. lead bullet intended (at the time of printing ) for small frame revolvers. As Erich mentioned several people shot it in old and modern aluminum frame .38 spl revolvers with no ill effects on the guns. I tried jacketed equivalent in 642 and reported it in Reloading section of this forum. Several people myself included tried some of the higher SR4756 charges from Speer #8 in various revolvers from 640 and SP101 (chambered for 357mag) and up to K, L and N frames. Results were reported in this and other forums. Paul5388 published some very impressive velocities for longer barrel revolvers which seem to leave commonly used slow powders in the dust.

Mike

 

[38-44HD45]

Been lurking here on this thread for ages. Thanks, Osprey. Kind of made me wish I'd kept my M12, but when I want to put +P through a 6-shot Al alloy gun (which I do, frequently) I have a few Colt Agents and Cobras that get that duty. FWIW, I've never seen one of them damaged by such use, either, but I've never put anywhere near the number of rounds through one that you shot here. I do have a Cobra that has digested upwards of 300 rounds of +P, though, with no visible ill effect. Thanks again; good work!

 

[tonysoprano150]

When preparing an engine block for a rebuild, it is possible to have it Magnefluxed to look for microscopic defects/cracks. Would it be possible to do this for a gun? The only problem I can see would be that some guns are made of materials that are not magnetic (i.e., certain alloy frames such as the test gun in question).

 

[Erich]

Funny you should mention this: My friend who shot more than 100 rounds of THE LOAD through his J-frame had the gun Magnafluxed afterward.

(Apparently this is possible, I guess the stuff itself being magnetic is the operative fact.

) No cracks anywhere.

 

[Art Doc]

stiab- I believe I have always cited the 1930 date as my personal comfort zone. Perhaps very early on I agreed with the post-1945 date but I quickly figured that was arbitrary. The last gun made before the war is no weaker than the first one made after the war. Same with the model number criterion. The last gun W/O a model number is just as strong as the first one made with one stamped on it.

 

[stiab]

stiab- I believe I have always cited the 1930 date as my personal comfort zone.

Saxon, in this thread back in November it sounded like 1899 was your comfort zone.
Nov thread

On Nov 7 2007 Doug.38PR posted...
"SaxonPig your responses on this subject always surprise me. You are one of the few people on all these boards that confidently claim that .38+P and even hotter loads are harmless in prewar Colt and S&W .38 guns...no matter how many you put through."

On Nov 8 2007 Saxon Pig replied...
"Doug- Starting in 1899 S&W designed the K frame 38 Special revolver to handle 21,500 PSI loads. Current factory +P ammo is loaded to 18,5000 PSI. So why should I worry about shooting this ammo in guns designed to safely handle 3,000 MORE pounds of pressure?"

 

[Osprey]

Folks,

I want thank you all for your kind words of encouragement throughout this test and your contributions. IMO, it was beneficial to let this topic "expand" (as opposed to "drift") into related topics such as reloads, overtightened barrels, and the history of +P. All these things added excellent content to the specific topic and test.

I'm going to "unfloat" this topic now and let it drift off into cyberspace history along with some of my other projects:

* Titanium cylinder erosion.
* Plastic Guide Rods in Beretta 92 Pistols.
* SA vs DA accuracy.
* ILIF (I guess this is still on going).

In the future, I've got another SA vs. DA test in mind and, if ammo weren't so expensive, I would be trying to KaBoom a 40-caliber Glock using a more scientific testing technique then the current Internet reports are offerring.

Good luck to all you M12 owners.

... Osprey

 

[j38]

Osprey, Thanks much for your informative efforts, and thanks also to the others, whose comments have contributed to my fuller understanding of this issue. Now, we can all make more informed decisions about what we want to shoot in our Airweight - and steel S&W's. Regards, Jerry

 

[fjmaring]

Folks,

I want thank you all for your kind words of encouragement throughout this test and your contributions. IMO, it was beneficial to let this topic "expand" (as opposed to "drift") into related topics such as reloads, overtightened barrels, and the history of +P. All these things added excellent content to the specific topic and test.

I'm going to "unfloat" this topic now and let it drift off into cyberspace history along with some of my other projects:

* Titanium cylinder erosion.
* Plastic Guide Rods in Beretta 92 Pistols.
* SA vs DA accuracy.
* ILIF (I guess this is still on going).

In the future, I've got another SA vs. DA test in mind and, if ammo weren't so expensive, I would be trying to KaBoom a 40-caliber Glock using a more scientific testing technique then the current Internet reports are offerring.

Good luck to all you M12 owners.

... Osprey

OSPREY...

Where would you post your Plastic Guide Rods in Beretta 92 Pistols test?

I mean this is a S&W Forum...and I´m not to familiar with your investigation.

Excuse my English...still learning it.

Thanks.

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

Good test, I learned something from this. Thank you.

 

[TN RAT]

I would suggest this test never stop. It would be an easy task to keep updating the log every time you fire this particular M12. I for one would love to see just how many rounds that M12 can take.

Thanks.

 

[Osprey]

OSPREY...

Where would you post your Plastic Guide Rods in Beretta 92 Pistols test?

fjmaring

I documented that test over on the Beretta Forum. At one point, I converted - if needed - all four of my Beretta 92 series pistols to Plastic Guide Rods (PGR) to see if there was any merit to all the whining about PGRs. I was posting quarterly round count reports and a running tally (similar to what I did here with the M12). Eventually, the whining stopped and I stopped updating topic; sold one of the test guns (the Vertec), and pretty much stopped shooting two of the remaining three guns. However, I have put quite a few rounds through the 92G that I had included in the test. If you'd like, email me and I'll send you the current up to date round count on the PGR in the 92G.

Cheers,

... Osprey [email protected]

ADDENDUM

Wow, I couldn't believe it...I went over to the Beretta Forum and actually found the link to the PGR topic. It hasn't been updated since Dec 2005. Here you go:

http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=5648

Again, I have more current data then is in this topic...

 

[Osprey]

I would suggest this test never stop. It would be an easy task to keep updating the log every time you fire this particular M12. I for one would love to see just how many rounds that M12 can take.

Thanks.

TN,

At one point, prior to the test, consideration was given to shooting the gun until failure, but the community consensus seemed to favor setting a finite number of +P rounds fired (we agreed to 1,000). Most involved in the discussion thought it silly to deliberately try to destroy a perfectly good M12. With this number, we at least got "closure" on this test even though I believe the debate about using +P in a model 12 will rage on forever.

Again, I have no intention of shooting +Ps in any of my M12s unless a situation forced me to. If so forced, I'm happy to say that this test has made me comfortable with the idea that in a pinch, shooting +Ps in an M12 will be okay.

... Osprey

 

[M28]

BTT

 

[Andy Griffith]

It's been a while since this was a BTT...

So here it is.

I got to wondering if "the test" was ever finished...

I should have paid more attention.

 

[David LaPell]

I think I would rather fire heavy +P's out of my M36 (which I won't since I really like the gun) then attempt this one. I wish I had taken pics of what the NYS Department of Corrections did to two M37 Smiths with +P .38 Special. Wasn't pretty. One frame cracked, and the other had the cylinder jammed against the recoil shield.

 

[Don Dineen]

M12

I know this is long after you made your post on the M12 with +P ammo. I just bought a 4" SQ. butt in NIB condition. Curious about it, I wrote to S&W and they said NO +P. My revolver is D657XXX so I assume it is '73-'74 based on your sample. I located a M12-4" ROUND BUTT, this afternoon. It is the first one I have seen. Why it calls to me I can only guess, but it feels very good in the hand.
It is too bad that the alloys now in use were not used in the M12 series. I like the +P ammo.
There seems to be many NIB condition M12 revolvers available now. Why, I can only speculate, but a local shop has several.
Now the issue is should I even use this fine condition gun or collect it. I don't like collecting, I like using.

 

[Don Dineen]

I have to question why bother to try +P since it doesn't do all that much more then a good standard velocity HP. Now I have to admit I like +P for my M642. My favorite load seems to have been pulled from production. I have hoarded Federal Nyclad 158 gr. LHP in both std. and +P, but I am running out. Has anyone found a new in 2011, that works at standard pressures? After getting this one model, I am looking at variants, for no better reason then they apeal to me.
Thanks, Don