Pauline Pusser autopsy....

[petepeterson]

Thread 'Accidental Discharge'

Jan 25, 2025

I want to talk about three accidental discharges. One happened to me, one happened to my dad, one happened to Bill Jordan. For me the number one rule of gun safety is to check that the gun is unloaded. Obviously if you have a discharge that rule was not followed. I think rule number two is to point the gun in a safe direction. In my family we had gun safety drilled into us from an early age.

My discharge occurred in Pottsboro, Texas in the 90's. I was home alone and messing with a Colt SAA in .357 Magnum. I had unloaded the gun and cleaned it. Reloaded it and set it aside for a bit...

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• Forum: S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961

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[petepeterson]

Sorry, go to page 2 of the thread I re-posted.
Not verifiable, but compelling, at any rate.

 

[boykinlp]

No, not .30 carbine and clearly not ejected brass from any sort of rifle unless they were just hauled there and dumped in a bunch. Whoever planted that at the scene, clearly knew nothing about crime scenes or forensic evidence. No I have no idea who planted it, but it sure looks planted. I assume the TBI knows this as well.

I've shot plenty of 30-06 from M1 Garands and a few from BARs (borrowed at the Knob Creek MG shoot) - the rounds don't land close to each other and are spread out over a much wider area from 6 to 12 feet or even more from the gun.

I'm not really saying anything about the Pusser case - I have more questions than answers - actually I don't have any answers.

One question would be, given that we know Buford and Pauline were seperated at the time of the killing, why would he take his wife with him on a potentially dangerous investigation?

Another would be why did Buford's father call the County Coroner (who has the authority to arrest the Sheriff) and tell him to get over to the house to prevent them from killing each other (we have that statement from the Coroner though not sworn I think).

Oddly, my Great Uncle was the Superintendant of Shiloh Battlefield National Park during the 60s and into the 70s - I never thought to ask him if he knew Buford - alas he died in '77 so I'll never get to

I lived pretty close to that area in the 70s but it was '76 to '80 and I didn't go over there except perhaps to drive through. I lived in MS to stay out of TN which had terrible gun laws back then (you simply could not carry a handgun "for the purpose of going armed" - there was no permit - I did obtain a badge while I was there and was legal in TN after that).

The current TBI invstigation details "stippling" on Buford's chin - not sure whether that is from an autopsy or it was from their first investigation in 1967 (it would be hard to identify stippling years later! But evidence collection has come a long way) - I have seen no evidence that they know what caliber Buford was shot with - I've only seen hard evidence he was hit once in that event - but - evidence was that he was only in the hospital for 18 days, so it could easily have been something else other than a .30 carbine. I'm comfortable assuming it was not a 30-06

I will say, I am a born skeptic - I don't necessarily beleive anybody in almost all cases like this. There is money to be made no matter which side of this case you choose to support.

Riposte

I recently read an article (not sure where now) that stated it was thought that Buford was shot in the cheek with a .25acp round. It would definitely be easier to do this to yourself with a Colt Vest Pocket than a .30 caliber rifle. But I also remember reading about his facial disfigurement from multiple shots…….so who knows what the actual truth was after so many years and no eye witnesses?

It was rumored that he was sleeping with a brothel owner, his wife confronted him, and she received a broken nose for her troubles. Supposedly, there was evidence of her broken nose in her autopsy done years later. But, to me, that could have happened in the ambush because of their vehicle driving off of the road.

I remember watching the original Joe Don Baker movie and liking how Buford dealt with the "bad guys"! I hope the new "information" isn't true.
Larry

 

[Riposte1]

I recently read an article (not sure where now) that stated it was thought that Buford was shot in the cheek with a .25acp round. It would definitely be easier to do this to yourself with a Colt Vest Pocket than a .30 caliber rifle. But I also remember reading about his facial disfigurement from multiple shots…….so who knows what the actual truth was after so many years and no eye witnesses?

It was rumored that he was sleeping with a brothel owner, his wife confronted him, and she received a broken nose for her troubles. Supposedly, there was evidence of her broken nose in her autopsy done years later. But, to me, that could have happened in the ambush because of their vehicle driving off of the road.

I remember watching the original Joe Don Baker movie and liking how Buford dealt with the "bad guys"! I hope the new "information" isn't true.
Larry

Like I said I don't know anything. They do list the previous broken nose in the information released last week, and they mentioned the stippling in that info - the information will be published by the Western Campus of UT soon I think.

I have also heard people say, Pauline was known to carry a .25 auto (I have no speculation on whether she or Buford used it).

Onward and, hopefully, upward!

Riposte

 

[Faulkner]

I did a little research since yesterday via ChatGPT. I don't think it is in any old magazines.

But I will revise my opinion from a bald "I think it is fiction" to I think "it is unlikely" because I have learned that a Border Patrol agent was killed in an ND incident in the Border Patrol HQ during the time period that Jordan was there.

Here's what I've learned, as summarized by ChatGPT

The story that famed Border Patrolman and gunwriter Bill Jordan once accidentally killed a fellow agent with a negligent discharge has circulated in shooting circles for decades, but it has uncertain origins. In Jordan's own 1965 book No Second Place Winner, he freely admitted to having an accidental discharge indoors during a fast-draw demonstration, but described it as a round into the floor with no harm done. For decades afterward, contemporary gun press profiles and Border Patrol tributes made no mention of him killing a colleague. The first versions of the "through the wall" story appear only much later, around the turn of the 21st century, in internet gun forums and Usenet discussions. These were anecdotal retellings without sourcing, and they gradually hardened into lore.

In 2013, a poster on the CanadianGunNutz forum, identifying herself as the daughter of Inspector John A. Rector—the agent who died in a 1956 accident at the Chula Vista Border Patrol HQ—asserted that Jordan was the shooter. Her account included details about the bullet passing through a partition wall and described Jordan's remorse. While her testimony has been repeated widely since, it remains anecdotal: her identity was not independently verified, she provided no contemporaneous documents, and her post stands as a single source on the internet rather than a corroborated family statement. For serious historical purposes, it must be treated as unverified personal testimony rather than definitive evidence.

A more recent boost to the claim came from a San Diego Sector Border Patrol Facebook memorial post that explicitly named Bill Jordan as the officer who fired the shot. While the post reflects how the agency itself now remembers the event, it was written nearly seventy years after the incident. Social-media posts, even when issued by an official office, can reflect later consensus or institutional memory rather than contemporary documentation. The original 1956 newspaper articles and CBP's own "In Memoriam" page recount the facts of Rector's death but do not name Jordan. Thus, while the Facebook post carries weight, it cannot by itself settle the matter.

What is beyond dispute is that Inspector Rector was indeed killed in October 1956 by a round fired through a partition wall at Chula Vista HQ. The open question is whether Jordan was that shooter. The combination of Jordan's own admitted negligent discharge (described as harmless), the absence of contemporary evidence naming him, and the late emergence of the claim decades later all argue for caution. It remains unproven, and perhaps unlikely, that Jordan was the man responsible for Rector's death. The incident happened, but the attribution to Jordan rests on anecdote and later memory rather than contemporaneous fact.

I don't think ChatGPT is infallible — I know it is not. But until someone turns up a contemporary account — e.g., the actual coroner's report or a contemporary police report — my opinion remains that it is unlikely Rector's shooter was Jordan.

And if there are any earlier gun magazine write ups, let's see 'em.

-----

Edit: I just ran the same search questions through Google's AI. It insists Jordan was the shooter, and won't budge. The difference between the two seems to me to be that Google's AI gives more credence to the Border Patrol's institutional memory than does ChatGPT.

FWIW.

Isn't the fallibility of AI in general is that it is only repeating what it can find on the internet. ChatGPT and Google AI will probably still report that Oswald was a lone gunman too.

 

[rockquarry]

Isn't the fallibility of AI in general is that it is only repeating what it can find on the internet. ChatGPT and Google AI will probably still report that Oswald was a lone gunman too.

Then maybe it gets some things right.

 

[Onomea]

Isn't the fallibility of AI in general is that it is only repeating what it can find on the internet. ChatGPT and Google AI will probably still report that Oswald was a lone gunman too.

I think the AI fallibility that is most often discussed is that occasionally it will just make stuff up, or what subject matter experts call "hallucinate." Apparently it is not understood why it does this.

(I was reflecting earlier, re my comment above that Google's AI — it's AI mode in Google Search — disagrees with ChatGPT regarding the facts of the Jordan ND incident that in a way this is similar to human historians who disagree on what happened. Or, how even first person witnesses to the same event can disagree. We humans aren't all that reliable either!)

 

[Faulkner]

{snip} We humans aren't all that reliable either!)

I agree, but it's been long known humans don't make reliable witnesses, we're starting to learn that AI isn't either.

 

[quikdraw67]

I don't see the point of this. The 2 people at the center of this are dead for over half a century.

 

[rockquarry]

I don't see the point of this. The 2 people at the center of this are dead for over half a century.

I've wondered the same, but looks like there are at least a few followers.

 

[Faulkner]

I don't see the point of this. The 2 people at the center of this are dead for over half a century.

Well, there is still the unanswered question as to who killed Buford.

 

[bobsguns]

It's a great read. The author was teaching Geneaolgy at a small college near Chattanooga when a student told him she had an interesting family history.
One of her relatives was Louise Hatchcock, the woman Pusser shot and killed at the Shamrock Motel at the Tennessee/Mississippi state line, after she pulled a snub nosed .38 on him and it misfired.

In college, I did a term paper on Pusser. I interviewed his daughter (recently deceased) & took pics of the ruins of the old motel.

I got to shake Pusser's hand when Ray Blanton ran for Gov. Blanton promised Pusser a slot in his admin if he won. Pusser died before the election. His hand just dwarfed my 12-13 year old hand!

 

[bobsguns]

My Magic 8 Ball, but my Ouija board confirmed it.

Poor taste of you to post this, IMO.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The story I recall of Bill Jordan and an accidental discharge was one I read in his column in Shooting Times 30-40 years ago. A young Border Patrolman on office duty by himself on a lonely weekend was practicing his fast draw, fired a live round through the wall into the office of the Senior Inspector and through his dress uniform. The young Border Patrolman found a gunsmith who changed the barrel on his Colt New Service-had to de-nickel it as well. All the revolvers were called in but the ballisticians
couldn't get a match.

 

[45Smashemflat]

No, not .30 carbine and clearly not ejected brass from any sort of rifle unless they were just hauled there and dumped in a bunch. Whoever planted that at the scene, clearly knew nothing about crime scenes or forensic evidence. No I have no idea who planted it, but it sure looks planted. I assume the TBI knows this as well.

I've shot plenty of 30-06 from M1 Garands and a few from BARs (borrowed at the Knob Creek MG shoot) - the rounds don't land close to each other and are spread out over a much wider area from 6 to 12 feet or even more from the gun.

I'm not really saying anything about the Pusser case - I have more questions than answers - actually I don't have any answers.

One question would be, given that we know Buford and Pauline were seperated at the time of the killing, why would he take his wife with him on a potentially dangerous investigation?

Another would be why did Buford's father call the County Coroner (who has the authority to arrest the Sheriff) and tell him to get over to the house to prevent them from killing each other (we have that statement from the Coroner though not sworn I think).

Oddly, my Great Uncle was the Superintendant of Shiloh Battlefield National Park during the 60s and into the 70s - I never thought to ask him if he knew Buford - alas he died in '77 so I'll never get to

I lived pretty close to that area in the 70s but it was '76 to '80 and I didn't go over there except perhaps to drive through. I lived in MS to stay out of TN which had terrible gun laws back then (you simply could not carry a handgun "for the purpose of going armed" - there was no permit - I did obtain a badge while I was there and was legal in TN after that).

The current TBI invstigation details "stippling" on Buford's chin - not sure whether that is from an autopsy or it was from their first investigation in 1967 (it would be hard to identify stippling years later! But evidence collection has come a long way) - I have seen no evidence that they know what caliber Buford was shot with - I've only seen hard evidence he was hit once in that event - but - evidence was that he was only in the hospital for 18 days, so it could easily have been something else other than a .30 carbine. I'm comfortable assuming it was not a 30-06

I will say, I am a born skeptic - I don't necessarily beleive anybody in almost all cases like this. There is money to be made no matter which side of this case you choose to support.

Riposte

Not disagreeing with you, but will point out that this is just a photo of shell casings in a book. There is no indication if these are "in situ" - and I agree that no BAR fired from a moving car would drop brass in this way. There is also no indication that these casings might be a pile after they were gathered along the roadside by someone and grouped together for a photo.

Bottom line, lots of unknowns. Too many, in my opinion, to REALLY nail down what happened.