Paying to Rebuild the Ukraine

[Yaworski]

Childish?

No, the standard children's excuse for a fight is "he hit me first."

Exactly what Ukraine is saying.

The adult response is instead, "let's make peace now."

Who said anything about "Childish?"

Your answer is to give the aggressor what they want in the hopes that he won't attack anymore. "Here, have my lunch money. Just don't hit me anymore."

 

[Der Verminator]

I believe the adult response is "Give me back my stuff you stole, and we can make peace now".

And therein lies the root problem here.

BOTH parties feel they have a legitimate claim to that "stuff."

Ethnic Russians living in the disputed and traditionally Russian lands have been brutally oppressed by Ukrainian government.

I have a Hungarian friend who has horror stories about how Hungarians who work in Ukraine are mistreated, so I can see that there's probably truth in the Russian claims.

A compromise must be reached and the U.S. should be working to find it........instead of blaming Russia and encouraging Ukraine in fighting a lost cause against a far superior power.

 

[Der Verminator]

Who said anything about "Childish?"

Your answer is to give the aggressor what they want in the hopes that he won't attack anymore. "Here, have my lunch money. Just don't hit me anymore."

No, that's not my answer at all.

There's no lunch money involved, but instead a dispute over land ownership and oppression of ethnic Russians by the Ukrainians.

It's a little more complex than the bullying of children.

It is unclear as to just who is the majority population in the disputed lands........but it is suspicious that the Ukrainians are opposed to a free vote supervised by the United Nations to determine who should have these lands.

It requires adult behavior and a realistic assessment of the situation.

 

[UncleEd]

I have a Hungarian friend who has horror stories about how Hungarians who work in Ukraine are mistreated, so I can see that there's probably truth in the Russian claims..

This statement cries out for more
information. How are the Hungarians
"mistreated?" Why do they remain in
Ukraine and what brought them to
Ukraine in the first place? Why don't
they leave? Are they supporters
of the current Hungarian leadership?
Do they actively support Russian goals?

 

[Yaworski]

So if Canada wants Vermont because ethnic Canadians live there, we should give it to them?

What I see is that a megalomaniac in charge of a country that is losing relevance in the modern world decided that another country, with established borders, had something that he wanted. He thought that the smaller country would roll over and was surprised that they didn't.

 

[UncleEd]

It is unclear as to just who is the majority population in the disputed lands........but it is suspicious that the Ukrainians are opposed to a free vote supervised by the United Nations to determine who should have these lands.

What does it matter who the majority
is regarding ethnicity. The lands lie
within the borders of Ukraine; they
are Ukrainian. Why don't these
separatist Russians just separate by
going to Russia?

The fact is the lines of European
nations have been drawn and
redrawn through the centuries.
Poland is an example of ever
changing borders being forced
upon it.

But at some point, as of now
the 21st Century, it's time to
stop all the redrawing the map
to suit the blowing of political
winds.

Early on Putin made a speech
referring to what used to be
mother Russia a century and
more ago. He used this argument
to justify retaking Ukrainian land.

 

[Der Verminator]

This statement cries out for more
information. How are the Hungarians
"mistreated?" Why do they remain in
Ukraine and what brought them to
Ukraine in the first place? Why don't
they leave? Are they supporters
of the current Hungarian leadership?
Do they actively support Russian goals?

The government support of hate and actions of hate toward ethnic Russians is well-documented although it has been heavily covered up by Western Media.

This from a long and scholarly article that reveals more of the real story than most.

The government legitimises radical Russophobe organisations by co-opting its activists into power structures, including those of law-enforcement.

Thus, the position of the chief of Kiev regional police was filled by a deputy commander of the 'Azov' battalion, known for their usage of Nazi symbols.

The commander of that battalion, Andrey Biletskiy, with the support of the ruling 'Popular Front' party, has been elected to the Verkhovna Rada from one of Kiev's majority districts. Apart from him, a number of other nationalist-radicals known for their Russophobia have been elected to the parliament from majority parties' lists, including 'the Radical Party' of Oleh Lyashko.

There were no cases registered of the country leaders – the President or the Prime Minister – distancing themselves from the actions and radical anti-Russian rhetoric of their coalition partners.

Moreover, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk himself actively participates in the fomentation of that anti-Russian hysteria. All of this promotes the intensification of the degree of hatred towards Russia and, one way or another, towards Russians.

Among other things, the fomentation of ethnic strife is furthered by torch-light processions of nationalists held on a regular basis (with the government's acquiescence) under the slogans 'Glory to the nation, death to enemies', 'Ukraine above all', and 'Moskals to the knife!' in many cities of the country, including Kiev and even Odessa.

Russians in Ukraine: Before and after Euromaidan

 

[Der Verminator]

So if Canada wants Vermont because ethnic Canadians live there, we should give it to them?

The ethnic Canadians in Vermont are not oppressed or even noticed.

That could make a difference.

 

[dockmurgw]

So if Canada wants Vermont because ethnic Canadians live there, we should give it to them?

NOOOOO!!!!! There are enough bad drivers around here without us being one of them!!!
Now the entire Southwest back to Mexico? Hmmmm...

 

[dockmurgw]

The ethnic Canadians in Vermont are not oppressed or even noticed.

That could make a difference.

You obviously never met my mother-in-law.

 

[Heinz]

The ethnic Canadians in Vermont are not oppressed or even noticed.

That could make a difference.

What? Canadians cannot vote, they cannot buy guns, they are restricted from many government assistance programs. They cannot hold jobs in many law enforcement agencies and they need ID papers to leave or enter the country.

Much like the "oppression" you noted

 

[biku324]

I believe the adult response is "Give me back my stuff you stole, and we can make peace now".

Hard to give back lives to the executed, and peace to the raped and tortured.

 

[Der Verminator]

What? Cannot cannot vote, they cannot buy guns, they are restricted from many government assistance programs. They cannot hold jobs in many law enforcement agencies and they need ID papers to leave or enter the country.

Much like the "oppression" you noted

That's not an American citizen who is an "ethnic" Canadian, that's a Canadian citizen working in the U.S.

The ethnic Russians in Ukraine are Ukrainian citizens.

 

[Der Verminator]

Hard to give back lives to the executed, and peace to the raped and tortured.

Hard for both sides.

 

[UncleEd]

Der Verminator,
'
I asked about abuses toward Hungarians
in Ukraine and you cited a dissertation on
Russians.

Now, answer my questions on Hungarians.
It's what you always demand when asking
a question.

And yes, Biku makes the most salient points,
how do you forgive and forget the rapes and
tortures by invading Russian forces? And what
about the indiscriminate killings of civilians on
the streets? Answer these questions.

Or are you going to tell us again how
aggrieved the Russians are?

 

[biku324]

There's no equivalance.

 

[Der Verminator]

Der Verminator,
'
I asked about abuses toward Hungarians
in Ukraine and you cited a dissertation on
Russians.

Now, answer my questions on Hungarians.

The Hungarians are an unwanted ethnic group about 150,000 strong in western Ukraine.

They live in an area that is part of historic Hungary--so Ukraine distrusts and fears them just as they do the ethnic Russians in the east who live in a part of Ukraine that is historically Russian.

This article addresses some of the problems.

Singing Off-Key? Kyiv, Budapest Clash Over Rights Of Ethnic Hungarians In Ukraine

 

[Der Verminator]

And yes, Biku makes the most salient points,
how do you forgive and forget the rapes and
tortures by invading Russian forces? And what
about the indiscriminate killings of civilians on
the streets?

There was a coup against the pro-Russian Ukraine government in 2013-2014 that included atrocities on both sides that have continued in the succeeding years in various places within Ukraine.

Revolutions are hardly ever without bad behavior on both sides.

Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia

There are no angels in this war.

 

[UncleEd]

No angels in this war?

So it's a matter of picking which
poison.

Some here chose the Russian devil.
Others here chose the Ukrainian devil.

Nothing more to say.

Moderators, close this thread.

 

[biku324]

I see the UN starting war crimes against Russia, not against Ukraine. It matters that Russia invaded.

 

[Yaworski]

There was a coup against the pro-Russian Ukraine government in 2013-2014

Apparently, the people spoke loudly.

 

[Yaworski]

Some here chose the Russian devil.
Others here chose the Ukrainian devil.

People who value freedom support the peaceful Ukrainian people against the Russian hordes who have been oppressing the Ukes for centuries.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rynxqdNMry4[/ame]

 

[BSA1]

A compromise must be reached and the U.S. should be working to find it........instead of blaming Russia and encouraging Ukraine in fighting a lost cause against a far superior power.

Why is it the responsibility of the United States to find a compromise in what is clearly a European War so far?

Are you thinking of something like the 1938 Munich Agreement with Britain, France, Italy and Germany where the Sudeten Germany Territory of Czechoslovakia was given to Hitler while members of the Czech government sat outside in another room without a say in the agreement?

As far as fighting for a lost cause Finland managed to keep it's independence in the 1939 - 1940 Winter War although it did come at a price. But Finland didn't have other countries supporting and providing supplies and arms to it.

Isn't one of the roles of The United Nations is to negotiate peace among countries?

 

[Der Verminator]

I see the UN starting war crimes against Russia, not against Ukraine. It matters that Russia invaded.

There could be reasons that justify the invasion.

Don't forget that Ukraine has made war on ethnic Russians in the east since the 2014 coup.

 

[Der Verminator]

Why is it the responsibility of the United States to find a compromise in what is clearly a European War so far?

It's in our best interest to find a peaceful end and prevent the war from becoming a world nuclear war........which would likely kill you and me.

 

[Der Verminator]

People who value freedom support the peaceful Ukrainian people against the Russian hordes who have been oppressing the Ukes for centuries.

Ethnic Russians in the east are also fighting for freedom from Ukrainian oppression.

Ethnic Hungarians in the west are also oppressed and crying out for freedom although Hungary has not threatened an invasion.

Hungary HAS demanded autonomy for their people in Ukraine and Ukraine has refused to consider changes to their oppressive ways.

All this does not make Ukraine look good to those who are aware of her offenses.

 

[biku324]

There could be reasons that justify the invasion.

Don't forget that Ukraine has made war on ethnic Russians in the east since the 2014 coup.

That's just nuts.

 

[Der Verminator]

That's just nuts.

The rule is........you're supposed to back that up with a reason.

Otherwise you just wasted a post.

 

[Tom Beavert]

OK, I'm done.
Tom B

 

[Der Verminator]

OK, I'm done.
Tom B

Thanks.

But the Ukraine war is not done.