PCC for Home Defense?

[Tu_S]

Personally, if I need more firepower than what I have from a pistol for home defense, it's time to move.

When it comes to the videos put out on YouTube by Brownell's, after watching a few of them while trapped at home during the Covid shutdown of 2020, I have come to the conclusion that they're just throwing content out there for the sake of having it, and a lot of the information is garbage.

 

[giants1]

54ball, thanks. You wrote:

"A 22 rifle's niche is small game and target shooting. Can it be pressed for big game? Sure, but it's not ideal. Can it be pressed for home defense, Sure but...? A 22 is touted as one of the best all-around but really it has too much range, the round has too much penetration (in the home) and is too ineffective. A 22 rifle can be a jack of all trades but unlike a shot gun it does few well."

Do you mean .223 Remington or .22LR?

What do you use for home defense?

Thanks

 

[Kanewpadle]

Personally, if I need more firepower than what I have from a pistol for home defense, it's time to move.

When it comes to the videos put out on YouTube by Brownell's, after watching a few of them while trapped at home during the Covid shutdown of 2020, I have come to the conclusion that they're just throwing content out there for the sake of having it, and a lot of the information is garbage.

Within the confines of your house a shotgun can be devastating in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.

I’ll take a 12 gauge before any handgun.

If you want the truth on YouTube see Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I'm not into carbine length pistol calibers for home defense but I do like the shorter barrel lengths that are still classified as pistols, like an 8" barrel PDW (which I think was the barrel length in the video).

I've not tested 9x19 in a 16" barrel but an 8" definitely gains velocity over traditional pistol barrel lengths with medium speed powers (P-P & L-S) & slower powders (AA#7) gain even more and is plenty fast.

My son has a 4" 9mm Freedom Ordnance FX-9 AR pistol & I have the 8" version & they're both super accurate using red dot sights since they're more like a rifle than a pistol.

As far as their bullets "under-performing" I think it would more be a matter of "over-performing" if you used a bullet designed to expand in a short barrel, & at lower velocities, but at the higher velocities. Just use the properly designed bullet for your application.

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8" FX-9, 9x19
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Warning: Some are non-standard loads. Use at your own risk.
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[54ball]

54ball, thanks. You wrote:

"A 22 rifle's niche is small game and target shooting. Can it be pressed for big game? Sure, but it's not ideal. Can it be pressed for home defense, Sure but...? A 22 is touted as one of the best all-around but really it has too much range, the round has too much penetration (in the home) and is too ineffective. A 22 rifle can be a jack of all trades but unlike a shot gun it does few well."

Do you mean .223 Remington or .22LR?

What do you use for home defense?

Thanks

A very good question that deserves an answer.

I was referring to the .22rimfire (22LR). Again, for what it is, it has too much range and penetration. It also can be ineffective. In a sense it's the worst of all worlds.
Many take it lightly like it's an advanced BB gun. It's not! It's a deadly round that has a range of 1-1/2 miles. It's not enough and too much at the same time, in my opinion.

A 223/5.56/7.62x39 are intermediate or "assault rifle" (that's their historical ID) rounds. They are not as heavy as a full-sized service round. They are much more powerful than a pistol or sub caliber round.
Really, they may be too much for a home defense scenario. With that said, too much gun or too little of a gun is always better than no gun. It goes back to what is accessible.

What do you use for home defense?

I have never had to defend my place against 2 legged critters, only 4 legged critters, thank God.

Whatever was accessible. I have used a hoe.
Yep, a garden hoe. It was right there, and I used it to save the rest of my chickens. A pair of abandoned dogs were in the coop. In that case the hoe got them out of the coop but unfortunately for them they did not leave. They stayed around long enough for me to back in the house and retrieve a long gun.

Growing up what's been used for defense or "fired in anger" against 4 legged critters killin stuff on my, or my parents place....
Shotguns....12 gauge pumps Duck shot was used because it was accessible. My Dad and I were back from duck hunting...

20-gauge double...I kept it assessable and ready. It was a little much for rats in the chicken coop.

Model 70 30-06...
That was a mistake. It did the job, but it was too much gun. There's just too much potential of...?
The joker has a range of 3 miles. It's just too much.
You can say the same about the black rifles.
By far using that rifle for that bothers me to this day. It was poor judgement.

.22LR rifles or pistols...several times but never used. Now the 22LRs have been used for...mercy on the farm.
My. 38s... several times but never actually used except for mercy once.
A flintlock rifle one time, shouldered, aimed and cocked but not fired.

What I have used is what was easily accessible including the hoe.
My go to, has been either my pistols or my shot guns.

I don't have a PCC but, in my opinion, it would have fit much better in many of these scenarios.
Still though...
Best all-around is a shotgun. If I had no gun at all, I would get a shotgun before anything else.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

According to This Chart, 9mm will continue to gain velocity in barrels up to about 16-17".

 

[rosewood]

I would argue that a pistol caliber carbine is ideal because of the complete burn of the powder. You get less muzzle blast and flash. Will make for easier followup shots and easier on the ears. Most pistol caliber carbines get you 200+fps increase over a 4" pistol.

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

According to This Chart, 9mm will continue to gain velocity in barrels up to about 16-17".

As a general rule of thumb, most pistol cartridges make appreciable gains in velocity up to about 12", beyond that, you get diminishing returns, maybe only 50-100 fps from 12" to 18" and sometimes it even drops.

The selected powder also has a big effect on it. If you go with a slower burning powder, you get more gains in velocity over a faster powder as it has more time to burn and accelerate the projectile.

Rosewood

 

[Paul in Nevada]

As a general rule of thumb, most pistol cartridges make appreciable gains in velocity up to about 12", beyond that, you get diminishing returns, maybe only 50-100 fps from 12" to 18" and sometimes it even drops.

The selected powder also has a big effect on it. If you go with a slower burning powder, you get more gains in velocity over a faster powder as it has more time to burn and accelerate the projectile.

Rosewood

You ought yo go ahead and click on the chart because that's not what the data shows. For most loads the velocity gain between 8-12" is essentially the same as the velocity gain between 12-16". For most loads velocity does not begin to drop until 17-18". Don't just repeat the same old wive's tale when you have been given the data.

 

[zeke]

I'm not into carbine length pistol calibers for home defense but I do like the shorter barrel lengths that are still classified as pistols, like an 8" barrel PDW (which I think was the barrel length in the video).

I've not tested 9x19 in a 16" barrel but an 8" definitely gains velocity over traditional pistol barrel lengths with medium speed powers (P-P & L-S) & slower powders (AA#7) gain even more and is plenty fast.

My son has a 4" 9mm Freedom Ordnance FX-9 AR pistol & I have the 8" version & they're both super accurate using red dot sights since they're more like a rifle than a pistol.


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Am also following this concept with a 4.5 in 9mm with folding stock and 5 in 45 acp braced. Both are legal, and incredibly easy to use/control and be accurate with. Folded, the 9mm is extremely short and muzzle accessory friendly. Am trying to plan ahead for getting even older.

 

[Cal44]

I just use my CCW. A 340PD loaded with 38 Special +P.

At night it's in the pocket of my cargo shorts hanging on a chair.

 

[rosewood]

You ought yo go ahead and click on the chart because that's not what the data shows. For most loads the velocity gain between 8-12" is essentially the same as the velocity gain between 12-16". For most loads velocity does not begin to drop until 17-18". Don't just repeat the same old wive's tale when you have been given the data.

I am basing my statement on what you find on the ballistics by the inch webpage also. It ain't a wives tale. I guess we interpret the data differently, 50 fps or so difference gain from 12-18" aint much to speak of. That is specifically looking at the 9mm also, I was generalizing across other cartridges also.

Look at the data for the 44 mag, 357 mag etc, then tell me I am quoting a wives tale.


And how can it be a wives tale? I come up with that statement from my past study of the BBTI webpage, I have never head anyone else make that statement.
Rosewood

 

[Paul in Nevada]

I am basing my statement on what you find on the ballistics by the inch webpage also. It ain't a wives tale. I guess we interpret the data differently, 50 fps or so difference gain from 12-18" aint much to speak of. That is specifically looking at the 9mm also, I was generalizing across other cartridges also.

Look at the data for the 44 mag, 357 mag etc, then tell me I am quoting a wives tale.


And how can it be a wives tale? I come up with that statement from my past study of the BBTI webpage, I have never head anyone else make that statement.
Rosewood

Your claim that 12.5" was somehow an optimal barrel length is provably false. It's a completely arbitrary number. You also stated that increasing barrel length beyond that point resulted in diminishing returns while the data shoes that inch by inch, the velocity gain remains fairly consistent.

 

[wood714]

I have 4 AR's, 3 AK's, and 3 9mm SBR's that all use 30+ round mags.

The one on the right leans against the head board of my bed. A 1960's Winchester 1200. My P365 is on the nightstand, only because that's where it stays if it's not on my hip.

 

[BB57]

Hollow point performance at pistol caliber carbine velocities depends on the hollow point.

In some cases, higher than normal velocities create more rapid expansion and can actually result in under penetration, and in the extreme can cause the hollow point to start shedding pieces.

In other cases, the bullet will open up a bit more, but the added velocity will keep the penetration within acceptable limits.

For example, the 124 gr Sig V-crown fired from a 8.3” MP5 achieves roughly 1350 fps and penetrates 15-16”.

At lower velocities in shorter barrels it expands a bit less, it still penetrates 14-16”.

I’ve also had good results with the 115 gr Hornady XTP. It’s more of a mushrooming bullet at pistol velocities and just mushrooms more at PCC velocities while still giving good penetration in the 17-18” range.

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I’ve shot both bullets using the same load in 8” and 10” pistols as well as in my 16” Colt 6450 16” carbine and velocities are not significantly higher in the longer barrel. They don’t get “slower” as is the popular internet myth. They just don’t gain very much additional velocity per inch of additional barrel in longer barrels.

For example the 115 gr XTP fired from my 8.3” MP5 will have an average velocity of 1437 fps, and in my 16” 6450 the average velocity only increases 88 fps to 1525 fps.

As a partial aside, that’s an increase of only about 11 fps per inch of additional barrel. That’s not much and in fact it’s that’s less than the normal less shot to shot variation in velocity (standard deviation) per inch of barrel length.

The folks at Ballistics By the Inch mean well, but their method of shooting just three shots over a pair of chronographs to get six data points is still only a three shot sample size. Unfortunately because of the small sample size and high standard deviation, they show a decreased average velocity for barrel lengths an inch or two longer and people will conclude bullets “ slow down” in longer barrels, which isn’t the case.

 

[Shrek Of The Arctic]

I'm not a fan of the PCC myself. If I'm gunna deal with a stock and a two handed grip, I want some power out of the thing. My side of the bed always has an AR or a pump shotgun. I have to qualify with them for the work place, so...it's a pretty natural fit.

Now that I've obstinately shot my mouth off, I will concede that my household does benefit from a PCC.

A Kel-Tec Sub 2K 9mm lives on my Wife's side of the bed. We will be celebrating our 25th Wedding Anniversary soon. In all those years, I've owned numerous ARs. AKs, M1As, H&Ks, etc. and she has never, ever taken an interest in any of them. I am able to get her to familiarize herself with their operation, but nothing further.

She is a little bit recoil sensitive and she is a lot bit noise sensitive. The Kel-Tec for her is particularly light, handy, not so insanely loud, with a darn reasonable bit of power, and a heckuva lot of capacity. But the big rub of it is that she really, really enjoys shooting it. I can set her up with a couple hundred rounds loaded in mags and she will giggle, perforate targets, and ding steel until there is not a single round left. The magazine compatibility with her Glock 34 ain't a bad thing either.

 

[FoundFather]

OP, I think you'll be fine with a PCC for home defense. You can get proficient with it in lot less time than a pistol.

This is a hobbyist website, so of course we rare going to debate the finer points until the cows come home, and after.

Is a PCC the BEST choice for home defense? For who? It might be for some people.

Personally, I love the knock down power of a 12 gauge with buckshot, and I have one next to the bed. If I ever hear the front door being kicked in in he middle of the night, so I KNOW I have "situation" on my hands, that is what I am grabbing.

But I also have a pistol next to the bed, in my case a Beretta 96, .40 S&W with 180 grain HST's loaded. That's the one that I pick up when something goes "bump" in he night, and my wife won't let me go back to sleep until I go see what it is.

There are a whole lot of good choices for home defense. What is "best" is a highly individualized matter.

 

[gwpercle]

Nothing say's ... "Defend My Home " like a short barreled pump shotgun and a " Bandolier of Buckshot " !!!

Forget the trash the U-Tubbers spew out to make themselves appear relevant ... they aren't .... Just stick with old school basics .

If you aren't a shooter / hunter ... get yourself a non-tactical good old fashioned pump shotgun , short bbl. is handy , a box of shells and shoot a round of skeet or sporting clays to get the hang of it ...practice with birdshot . Buy a box of each - 00 Buckshot for long range and my favorite for inside the house is #4 Buckshot ... shoot a few of these at targets so you will see how the shot spread and pattern .

Very few men will stand and shoot it out with a homeowner fiireing loads of buckshot at them ... just way too much firepower , they will break and run or surrender .
Gary

 

[WR Moore]

Within the confines of your house a shotgun can be devastating in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.

I’ll take a 12 gauge before any handgun.

If you want the truth on YouTube see Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch.

To be effective, the shotgun has to be loaded with the proper ammunition. That isn't birdshot. Also, even buckshot/rifled slug isn't as effective as myth and legend would make you believe. OTOH, myth and legend might make actual use unnecessary. Depending upon your house layout, the spread of buckshot may be a problem. Federal Tactical Buckshot holds much tighter patterns, but you need to shoot some in your shotgun to see when/if spread/stray pellets become a problem.

Having watched the clip above and with due apologies to Clint: your firearm selection depends upon what you're gonna do with it. The handgun can be used with one (gun) hand, leaving the other hand free to turn on lights, open doors, control a child or help an aged/less able adult while still being capable of instant use. Also, and since the OP worries about getting to his PCC/shotgun, the handgun can be worn at (almost) all times within the home.

Clint's point about the OAL of raised long gun and handgun assumes that you shoot with your arms fully extended instead of flexed elbows. It gets down right silly if you have to search your house for the bump in the night. It's silly because of the handgun ready position where you draw your arms in and have the hands against the chest with the muzzle of the gun forward and slightly upward. If necessary, you can simply lower the muzzle and fire.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Not strictly a PCC, but an M-1 Carbine-with the bayonet attached. "WHAT'S THE SPIRIT OF THE BAYONET !!!!"