Pepper spray

[Piwo]

There is nothing wrong with carrying OC spray (or 9mm handguns.) As with anything, one should be aware of all the laws in one's area regarding their use. There are times I carry pepper spray in addition to a handgun, mostly for stray dogs. In those instances I like the options it gives me. However, as a police officer(now retired) we were trained relentlessly with it. We were drilled on when and where pepper spray fit in the force continuum in our annual in service training. We had departmental policies on it's use, the same as with all weapons issued. Most people that buy pepper spray and carry it have no idea of it's proper use or effects. If you can't afford training for pepper spray from a reliable and knowledgeable instructor, at least read up on it. Practice deploying it like your firearm. Knowledge beforehand on the tactical use and circumstances prevent the indecision you might have when the time comes. It also helps in articulating your actions to the police. The bottom line is that if you buy pepper spray, throw it in your pocket and have no idea of when or how you are going to use it you are more likely to have problems. If you are educated or trained on the abilities and limitations of pepper spray, then YOU can decide if it fits into your self defense plan.

 

[geeollie]

If interested in Pepper Spray, I would advise looking at Fox Labs.

Pepper Spray is not a standardized product. The sprays Scoville Heat rating is a key to how well it will or will not work. MANY sprays have some pepper in them and call themselves pepper spray. The heat rating and percentage of the product that has the heat rating determines if it will work.

You and I could be sprayed with some brands and still run away. Or, still fight. A product such as Fox Labs being one of the highest Scoville heat rating products will affect the eyes and breathing of persons who have no awareness of pain.

A stream is my preferred spray pattern as it is LESS affected by wind. A fogging spray is good but can blow back on you. As PIWO says, getting training will be helpful and better ensure you pick the best for your needs.

 

[BB57]

In NC:


§ 14-401.6. Unlawful to possess, etc., tear gas except for certain purposes.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association to possess, use, store, sell, or transport within the State of North Carolina, any form of that type of gas generally known as "tear gas," or any container or device for holding or releasing that gas; except this section does not apply to the possession, use, storage, sale or transportation of that gas or any container or device for holding or releasing that gas:
(1) By officers and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States or this State while in the discharge of their official duties and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms or weapons;
(2) By or for any governmental agency for official use of the agency;
(3) By or for county, municipal or State law-enforcement officers in the discharge of their official duties;
(4) By or for security guards registered under Chapter 74C of the General Statutes, company police officers commissioned under Chapter 74E of the General Statutes, or campus police officers commissioned under Chapter 74G of the General Statutes provided they are on duty and have received training according to standards prescribed by the State Bureau of Investigation;
(5) For bona fide scientific, educational, or industrial purposes;
(6) In safes, vaults, and depositories, as a means or protection against robbery;
(7) For use in the home for protection and elsewhere by individuals, who have not been convicted of a felony, for self-defense purposes only, as long as the capacity of any:
a. Tear gas device or container does not exceed 150 cubic centimeters,
b. Tear gas cartridge or shell does not exceed 50 cubic centimeters, and
c. Tear gas device or container does not have the capability of discharging any cartridge, shell, or container larger than 50 cubic centimeters.
(b) Violation of this section is a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(c) Tear gas for the purpose of this section shall mean any solid, liquid or gaseous substance or combinations thereof which will, upon dispersion in the atmosphere, cause tears in the eyes, burning of the skin, coughing, difficulty in breathing or any one or more of these reactions and which will not cause permanent damage to the human body, and the substance and container or device is designed, manufactured, and intended to be used as tear gas. (1951, c. 592; 1969, c. 1224, s. 8; 1977, c. 126; 1979, c. 661; 1983, c. 794, s. 9; 1991 (Reg. Sess., 1992), c. 1043, s. 2; 1993, c. 151, s. 1; c. 539, s. 276; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2005-231, s. 10; 2011-183, s. 12.)

Statute: G.S. 14-401.6

As an NC resident I was going to post this. You'll find pepper spray for sale all over the place in gun shops, sporting goods stores and department stores. Unfortunately I don't think most of the NC residents buying it realize it's only legal for use "in the home for protection and elsewhere" or more importantly the 150 cc size limit, and what that equates to in ounces.

For example a 7.9 oz canister of bear spray is 233 cc, 8.1 oz is 240 cc, 9.2 oz in 272 cc and 10.2 oz is 301 cc. In short anything over 5.1 oz technically isn't legal in NC. Yet you can find those larger sizes of bear spray in pretty much any REI or Great Outdoors store in NC.

I'm noticed a similar phenomenon in VA where spring assisted opening knives like the Kershaw Leak are not legal, but are openly sold all over the state in stores like Walmart.

Now…realistically it also isn't something that law enforcement is probably ever going to show any interest in, unless and until you come to their attention for something else - like using a prohibited item for self defense against a 2 legged rather than 4 legged assailant.

——

Another consideration is that in many states a concealed carry permit only applies to a handgun and not to anything else considered to be a "weapon".

Check your state laws carefully before deciding to carry a collapsible baton, pepper spray or any knife large than what can be argued to be a pocket knife. Even then a small fixed blade knife might still be regarded as a concealed weapon.

 

[geeollie]

That is not a bad law. Anyone not convicted of a felony can carry up to 5 ounces in the home or elsewhere for protection purposes specifically self defense. I find anything over 4 ounces is hard to casually carry. A 4 ounce spray takes several seconds to empty.

And the devices besides a handheld spray can seem to be more limited.

 

[Echo40]

I've never carried pepper spray and frankly I especially wouldn't now.

A few months back my brother had to use pepper spray against a couple of dogs, and he ended up getting some of the stuff directly in his eyes when one of the dogs tried to shake it off. According to him, it burned like heck and made him cough/wheeze, but he was able to make his way back inside, up the stairs, and into the shower where he successfully flushed it out. His eyes were sore/irritated for the rest of the day, but at no point was he truly incapacitated by it.

Now granted, this stuff was formulated for dogs, so maybe the stuff made for humans is more potent, but either way, that doesn't inspire confidence in me that pepper spray is effective at stopping a thread, and frankly, I feel like if you're facing a threat which is serious enough to use pepper spray, then you're facing a threat serious enough to warrant drawing a pistol.

 

[TheTinMan]

Interesting discussion.

I gave my daughter pepper spray when she went to college in Boston. I forget the context, but a police officer told her she had to have a permit to carry it.

I can visualize scenarios where pepper spray used as a threat might avoid brandishing a firearm. The argument about time wasted if your judgement was off and you really needed to draw your weapon is valid. However, there could be a situation where pepper spray gave you an "out" from a worse confrontation.

 

[BabaBlueJay]

I have since changed my mind on this. Someone close to me uses pepper spray as a non-lethal option before use of a firearm. While there ARE situations where I would go straight to my sidearm, I can see now where there might be situations where a small OC canister could be the best option. I'll be carrying a small 1.5 oz can of a type I trust going forward.

 

[David Sinko]

The Use of Force Continuum is available online in various iterations. They all accomplish pretty much the same thing, which is to articulate "probable excessive force" and "probable ineffective force." One important difference is that the police generally do not retreat whereas the citizen is expected to avoid low level confrontations and just walk away, if possible. Serious bodily injury and loss of life are the threshold for the use of deadly force whether you're wearing a badge or not. Anybody can be put into a situation where you have a split second to decide whether to shoot or not to shoot.

I will say that my own experiences with pepper spray have been negative and I don't trust it. And dangerous dogs are not to be taken lightly and can be a very serious threat.

 

[sigp220.45]

The reason most academies spray cadets before they are allowed to carry pepper spray is twofold: 1) If you ever use it you will also get a dose and need to know what to expect, and; 2) it is hilarious from an instructors point of view. I never missed a chance to watch.

When I went through FBI firearms instructor school there was an active duty Navy Seal in the class. Why, I don't know. There was nothing we G-Nerds could teach him he didn't already know. They decided to spray us even though all of us had been sprayed before (see Reason 2 above). He got his before I got mine, so I was able to witness it. He took a full dose in the face, winced a little, pried his eyelids open and told the instructor: I could kill you right now.

I'm not sure if he meant it like: Your puny seasoning spray did not affect my ability to make mayhem in the least or; I'm gonna get you for this.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Carried "Mace" (CN) for many years, our department did not allow OC. used the CN a few times and was never all that impressed. Flashlight, baton, radio and jack was much more effective. Always heard how bad the OC version is.

Then I'm the sergeant assigned to Planning and Training. Off I go to Fort Dix for the FBI's Chemical Agents Instructors School. We get gassed once a day for a week by various types of tear gas.

CN, CS, OC and a mix of CS & OC. Canister, grenade, 40mm launchers and gas house. I never bothered carrying gas again. A blackjack works on everybody, OC is so so. Depends on how high the person is or how many times they've been exposed to gas.

I'm not saying you shouldn't carry it. Just don't expect miracles. There are exceptions. Do you feel lucky?

 

[Shrek Of The Arctic]

My daily carry consists of a small revolver, speed strip, and a small can of OC or a sap.

Being an average small town fella not inclined towards trouble, I'm really a believer in having something intermediate on hand. Being trained and certified as LE is likely to help in an off duty confrontation, especially if it is a previous client. I don't necessarily count on it though.

I guess the question is, can you reasonably elucidate your choices and actions?

Anyone who really understands OC realizes it has caveats. Wind direction, rain, ambient temperature, and the ever present variable of individual tolerance. Generally, it affects everyone...eventually. Most everyone in my academy took a good 30 seconds to a minute to feel any appreciable effects. I don't need to explain that can be an eternity when stuff is going down. Now, most of us run into a cloud of it, wince, cough, and curse, then get on with business. Here's a consideration. LEO learns to work through it. Know who else does? Troublemakers in prison who consquently get sprayed alot. Honestly, if I ever spray someone off duty, I'm fully expecting to go hands on. It might work in that time span, or it might not. If nothing else, I at least I have the comfort of knowing they'll be cooking nicely while the street cops sort things out.

It is also my considered opinion that any time OC is deployed it is a serving of a.....fecal sandwich, which everyone gets a bite of. The goal is to make the other guy take a bigger bite than you.

On that note...the sap. It is legal to carry in my home state. It becomes deadly force when used above the shoulders, it remains intermediate on torso and limbs. While I am used to OC and it's caveats, my family is not. My wife has severe asthma. I don't want to use OC in or near my car where I may have to drive quickly. Therefore, I do believe the sap becomes a viable option in my world.

Being a new age Peace Officer, I've never struck anyone with a sap unless training, but I have developed a confidence in them through that training.

It could be that I ain't well wired, but I asked my wife to go at me with a sap like she meant it. Maybe I'd left socks on the floor or the toilet seat up that day, but boy howdy! She sure delivered...thus, I am a believer.

I've used OC on several aggressive dogs. It has honestly never been that impressive, but we did make our escape. It didn't have a dramatic effect as much as the dogs seeming to casually decide we weren't worth the effort.

At the end of the day, I feel I can elucidate that I'm an aging, broken down fella, And a far cry from Chuck Norris, therefore i can justify an intermediate weapon. Should I need my firearm in a lethal encounter, I would expect to elucidate that I was scared for my life right then...not a minute or so in the future.

On OC, cone vs stream is the never ending debate. In my part of the world, we all hate foam and gel, but it's what we have to use in a hospital setting.

Best spray I've found is Phantom OC from Sabre. It's the same million SHU as any other Sabre spray, but much finer with a much more immediate effect.

I've enjoyed the many different shared perspectives here. Always something interesting to consider.