Pepper spray

cracker57 said:
How many people concealed carry a pistol and pepper spray?
I like the Idea of non lethal protection as shooting someone should be a last resort.
However lets say you live in a not so friendly gun location, you have pepper spray on you but the SHTF NOW so you use your pistol to stop the threat instead of your pepper spray. There was no time to see if the pepper spray is effective or not.
D.A. says they could have used their pepper spray to stop the threat CHARGE THEM, they didn't need to use lethal force. Thats what pepper spray is for and they had it on them.
Whats your thoughts?
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I EDC pepper spray, a knife, and a firearm. PLEASE do not take the foolish advice from others who are preaching the nonsense that a firearm or deadly force is always the answer. Taking advice chest thumper and tough talkers on the internet could land you in prison. We seen how that worked out with Sean Grayson.

I carry pepper spray because I like to have other non lethal or less lethal options to defend myself or to dissuade an attack that has not reach the threshold for lethal force. I also carry it to use on four legged animals like loose dogs that may approach me. I also like to have pepper spray for situations where I can't bring my firearm, and I am forced to leave it in my car. That's on school grounds, sporting events, post office, and places where they may have metal detectors.... It's just another, "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it," tool at your disposal.
 
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T44spl said:
It's a double edged sword. If you carry both items, which one do you reach for first? Also depending on the situation & it's subsequent escalation you only have a split second to make a decision & hope it's the right decision.
As you may have observed most LEO types carry both But they are trained in their use. The average armed citizen is not, plus some locales Mace is Not legal. In theory to carry both with the discretion to use non lethal means to defend oneself is a nice option.
In conclusion, I guess carry both and train for both if that's what gives you peace of mind. There's just too many variables you'll have to weigh out each situation and where your traveling to, to make each individual decision.
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As far as I know, pepper spray is legal to buy and carry in all 50 states. Naturally, there maybe some prohibited places, but I know of no states where it's outright banned....
 
When LE carries a baton, it's a compliance tool. When the general public carries one, it's a bludgeon. Usually, your state laws may vary. I believe various types of defensive sprays may be banned in several states, usual suspects as those despising armed citizens.
 
I have a set of keys for the fence and house on a key ring attached to OC. I use it almost exclusively when walking the dogs but I also carry a 296 in a fanny pack. I have had to pepper a couple of dogs in my running days. Circumstances dictate tactics.

With my medical status and the length of time it takes for dialysis every night, I do almost nothing but go to work and come home. With my limited exposure to most people, the odds of encounter are so slight I have much less risk than most others. We enjoyed the pandemic restrictions as neither my wife nor like people or being around them. Other than her, the only folks around here with whom I have contact are in my office.

The only other times I have encounters with random folks are walking the dogs. Rosie is very inclined to people. Ted is pretty good (he really likes other dogs), but few mess with a grumpy old man walking a Rottweiler. Both dogs are pretty happy to meet the young ladies at the college, and they don't present a threat.
 
I never carry spray. While I do believe their may well be situations where that would suffice, most of those situations could quickly turn into ones where more powerful form of defense would be necessary. I do not want to kill or injure anyone or even a dog. But, I can't, won't and am not required to be prepared for every means and situation where I need to defend myself. Nobody is.

Plus, Here is a concern. If I am carry both gun and spray and a situation occurs and I feel the need to use my gun instead of the spray, there is a very good chance that some prosecutor who was not on the scene, was not feeling or seeing just what I did will make the call that I could have ended the problem with the spray and not the gun. I will have very little time to make my decision and there is all the time in the world to analyze and second guess it. There will be plenty of that without the why didn't you use the spray questions. Plus, if it goes to trial, criminal or civil it will be one more question or possibility posed to the jury. Ladies and gentlemen he had the ability to end the situation by choosing to incapacity the assailant with peeper spray yet he chose to end his life using a gun. The prosecution isn't going to bring up the direction the wind was blowing, that if it didn't work I would be out of time and screwed when he makes this kind of statement during closing arguements Every single bit of possible mud gets thrown up in hopes that some sticks

LEOs are constantly being 2nd guessed in this manner, but, most of them will get far more benefit of the doubt by the prosecutors than civilians

Another thing is that although at one time stuff like pepper spray only seriously sucked, I now have to carry a whiffer because if I suck down just a tiny bit of the wrong stuff my airway shuts off and I have to struggle to just to breath. A whiff of pepper spray would probably knock me out.
 
In NC:


§ 14-401.6. Unlawful to possess, etc., tear gas except for certain purposes.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association to possess, use, store, sell, or transport within the State of North Carolina, any form of that type of gas generally known as "tear gas," or any container or device for holding or releasing that gas; except this section does not apply to the possession, use, storage, sale or transportation of that gas or any container or device for holding or releasing that gas:
(1) By officers and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States or this State while in the discharge of their official duties and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms or weapons;
(2) By or for any governmental agency for official use of the agency;
(3) By or for county, municipal or State law-enforcement officers in the discharge of their official duties;
(4) By or for security guards registered under Chapter 74C of the General Statutes, company police officers commissioned under Chapter 74E of the General Statutes, or campus police officers commissioned under Chapter 74G of the General Statutes provided they are on duty and have received training according to standards prescribed by the State Bureau of Investigation;
(5) For bona fide scientific, educational, or industrial purposes;
(6) In safes, vaults, and depositories, as a means or protection against robbery;
(7) For use in the home for protection and elsewhere by individuals, who have not been convicted of a felony, for self-defense purposes only, as long as the capacity of any:
a. Tear gas device or container does not exceed 150 cubic centimeters,
b. Tear gas cartridge or shell does not exceed 50 cubic centimeters, and
c. Tear gas device or container does not have the capability of discharging any cartridge, shell, or container larger than 50 cubic centimeters.
(b) Violation of this section is a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(c) Tear gas for the purpose of this section shall mean any solid, liquid or gaseous substance or combinations thereof which will, upon dispersion in the atmosphere, cause tears in the eyes, burning of the skin, coughing, difficulty in breathing or any one or more of these reactions and which will not cause permanent damage to the human body, and the substance and container or device is designed, manufactured, and intended to be used as tear gas. (1951, c. 592; 1969, c. 1224, s. 8; 1977, c. 126; 1979, c. 661; 1983, c. 794, s. 9; 1991 (Reg. Sess., 1992), c. 1043, s. 2; 1993, c. 151, s. 1; c. 539, s. 276; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2005-231, s. 10; 2011-183, s. 12.)

Statute: G.S. 14-401.6
 
There is nothing wrong with carrying OC spray (or 9mm handguns.) As with anything, one should be aware of all the laws in one's area regarding their use. There are times I carry pepper spray in addition to a handgun, mostly for stray dogs. In those instances I like the options it gives me. However, as a police officer(now retired) we were trained relentlessly with it. We were drilled on when and where pepper spray fit in the force continuum in our annual in service training. We had departmental policies on it's use, the same as with all weapons issued. Most people that buy pepper spray and carry it have no idea of it's proper use or effects. If you can't afford training for pepper spray from a reliable and knowledgeable instructor, at least read up on it. Practice deploying it like your firearm. Knowledge beforehand on the tactical use and circumstances prevent the indecision you might have when the time comes. It also helps in articulating your actions to the police. The bottom line is that if you buy pepper spray, throw it in your pocket and have no idea of when or how you are going to use it you are more likely to have problems. If you are educated or trained on the abilities and limitations of pepper spray, then YOU can decide if it fits into your self defense plan.
 
If interested in Pepper Spray, I would advise looking at Fox Labs.

Pepper Spray is not a standardized product. The sprays Scoville Heat rating is a key to how well it will or will not work. MANY sprays have some pepper in them and call themselves pepper spray. The heat rating and percentage of the product that has the heat rating determines if it will work.

You and I could be sprayed with some brands and still run away. Or, still fight. A product such as Fox Labs being one of the highest Scoville heat rating products will affect the eyes and breathing of persons who have no awareness of pain.

A stream is my preferred spray pattern as it is LESS affected by wind. A fogging spray is good but can blow back on you. As PIWO says, getting training will be helpful and better ensure you pick the best for your needs.
 
Big Dave in WNC said:
In NC:


§ 14-401.6. Unlawful to possess, etc., tear gas except for certain purposes.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association to possess, use, store, sell, or transport within the State of North Carolina, any form of that type of gas generally known as "tear gas," or any container or device for holding or releasing that gas; except this section does not apply to the possession, use, storage, sale or transportation of that gas or any container or device for holding or releasing that gas:
(1) By officers and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States or this State while in the discharge of their official duties and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms or weapons;
(2) By or for any governmental agency for official use of the agency;
(3) By or for county, municipal or State law-enforcement officers in the discharge of their official duties;
(4) By or for security guards registered under Chapter 74C of the General Statutes, company police officers commissioned under Chapter 74E of the General Statutes, or campus police officers commissioned under Chapter 74G of the General Statutes provided they are on duty and have received training according to standards prescribed by the State Bureau of Investigation;
(5) For bona fide scientific, educational, or industrial purposes;
(6) In safes, vaults, and depositories, as a means or protection against robbery;
(7) For use in the home for protection and elsewhere by individuals, who have not been convicted of a felony, for self-defense purposes only, as long as the capacity of any:
a. Tear gas device or container does not exceed 150 cubic centimeters,
b. Tear gas cartridge or shell does not exceed 50 cubic centimeters, and
c. Tear gas device or container does not have the capability of discharging any cartridge, shell, or container larger than 50 cubic centimeters.
(b) Violation of this section is a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(c) Tear gas for the purpose of this section shall mean any solid, liquid or gaseous substance or combinations thereof which will, upon dispersion in the atmosphere, cause tears in the eyes, burning of the skin, coughing, difficulty in breathing or any one or more of these reactions and which will not cause permanent damage to the human body, and the substance and container or device is designed, manufactured, and intended to be used as tear gas. (1951, c. 592; 1969, c. 1224, s. 8; 1977, c. 126; 1979, c. 661; 1983, c. 794, s. 9; 1991 (Reg. Sess., 1992), c. 1043, s. 2; 1993, c. 151, s. 1; c. 539, s. 276; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2005-231, s. 10; 2011-183, s. 12.)

Statute: G.S. 14-401.6
Click to expand...

As an NC resident I was going to post this. You'll find pepper spray for sale all over the place in gun shops, sporting goods stores and department stores. Unfortunately I don't think most of the NC residents buying it realize it's only legal for use "in the home for protection and elsewhere" or more importantly the 150 cc size limit, and what that equates to in ounces.

For example a 7.9 oz canister of bear spray is 233 cc, 8.1 oz is 240 cc, 9.2 oz in 272 cc and 10.2 oz is 301 cc. In short anything over 5.1 oz technically isn't legal in NC. Yet you can find those larger sizes of bear spray in pretty much any REI or Great Outdoors store in NC.

I'm noticed a similar phenomenon in VA where spring assisted opening knives like the Kershaw Leak are not legal, but are openly sold all over the state in stores like Walmart.

Now…realistically it also isn't something that law enforcement is probably ever going to show any interest in, unless and until you come to their attention for something else - like using a prohibited item for self defense against a 2 legged rather than 4 legged assailant.

——

Another consideration is that in many states a concealed carry permit only applies to a handgun and not to anything else considered to be a "weapon".

Check your state laws carefully before deciding to carry a collapsible baton, pepper spray or any knife large than what can be argued to be a pocket knife. Even then a small fixed blade knife might still be regarded as a concealed weapon.
 
That is not a bad law. Anyone not convicted of a felony can carry up to 5 ounces in the home or elsewhere for protection purposes specifically self defense. I find anything over 4 ounces is hard to casually carry. A 4 ounce spray takes several seconds to empty.

And the devices besides a handheld spray can seem to be more limited.
 
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I've never carried pepper spray and frankly I especially wouldn't now.

A few months back my brother had to use pepper spray against a couple of dogs, and he ended up getting some of the stuff directly in his eyes when one of the dogs tried to shake it off. According to him, it burned like heck and made him cough/wheeze, but he was able to make his way back inside, up the stairs, and into the shower where he successfully flushed it out. His eyes were sore/irritated for the rest of the day, but at no point was he truly incapacitated by it.

Now granted, this stuff was formulated for dogs, so maybe the stuff made for humans is more potent, but either way, that doesn't inspire confidence in me that pepper spray is effective at stopping a thread, and frankly, I feel like if you're facing a threat which is serious enough to use pepper spray, then you're facing a threat serious enough to warrant drawing a pistol.
 
Interesting discussion.

I gave my daughter pepper spray when she went to college in Boston. I forget the context, but a police officer told her she had to have a permit to carry it.

I can visualize scenarios where pepper spray used as a threat might avoid brandishing a firearm. The argument about time wasted if your judgement was off and you really needed to draw your weapon is valid. However, there could be a situation where pepper spray gave you an "out" from a worse confrontation.
 
I have since changed my mind on this. Someone close to me uses pepper spray as a non-lethal option before use of a firearm. While there ARE situations where I would go straight to my sidearm, I can see now where there might be situations where a small OC canister could be the best option. I'll be carrying a small 1.5 oz can of a type I trust going forward.
 
The Use of Force Continuum is available online in various iterations. They all accomplish pretty much the same thing, which is to articulate "probable excessive force" and "probable ineffective force." One important difference is that the police generally do not retreat whereas the citizen is expected to avoid low level confrontations and just walk away, if possible. Serious bodily injury and loss of life are the threshold for the use of deadly force whether you're wearing a badge or not. Anybody can be put into a situation where you have a split second to decide whether to shoot or not to shoot.

I will say that my own experiences with pepper spray have been negative and I don't trust it. And dangerous dogs are not to be taken lightly and can be a very serious threat.
 
The reason most academies spray cadets before they are allowed to carry pepper spray is twofold: 1) If you ever use it you will also get a dose and need to know what to expect, and; 2) it is hilarious from an instructors point of view. I never missed a chance to watch.

When I went through FBI firearms instructor school there was an active duty Navy Seal in the class. Why, I don't know. There was nothing we G-Nerds could teach him he didn't already know. They decided to spray us even though all of us had been sprayed before (see Reason 2 above). He got his before I got mine, so I was able to witness it. He took a full dose in the face, winced a little, pried his eyelids open and told the instructor: I could kill you right now.

I'm not sure if he meant it like: Your puny seasoning spray did not affect my ability to make mayhem in the least or; I'm gonna get you for this.
 
Carried "Mace" (CN) for many years, our department did not allow OC. used the CN a few times and was never all that impressed. Flashlight, baton, radio and jack was much more effective. Always heard how bad the OC version is.

Then I'm the sergeant assigned to Planning and Training. Off I go to Fort Dix for the FBI's Chemical Agents Instructors School. We get gassed once a day for a week by various types of tear gas.

CN, CS, OC and a mix of CS & OC. Canister, grenade, 40mm launchers and gas house. I never bothered carrying gas again. A blackjack works on everybody, OC is so so. Depends on how high the person is or how many times they've been exposed to gas.

I'm not saying you shouldn't carry it. Just don't expect miracles. There are exceptions. Do you feel lucky?
 
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