Pilot's Handguns Again

[Texas Star]

Vintage Fighters FG-1D Corsair Restoration


This summary of Ira Kepford's career in an F4U Corsair has (scroll down to it) a photo of him wearing a .45 auto. Not all Navy and Marine airmen got .38 Victory Model S&W's. He was in combat from late 1943-on.

I am reading a book by his boss in those days, Tom Blackburn, who led VF-17, whose Jolly Roger symbol is well known to most of us, I imagine. Blackburn also carried a .45 Colt auto, loaded with seven rounds of tracer ammo.

He was wearing that gun (and apparently no spare ammo) when he flew an F4F in support of Operation Torch, the invasion of Morocco in Nov., 1942. He had to ditch in the ocean after running out of fuel while looking for his carrier. Blackburn got into his tiny life raft and drifted in to be saved by a destroyer's crew several days later. His feet were almost ruined by immersion, as cold water kept sloshing into his little raft. The doc told him that another day would have seen gangrene set in!

Blackburn had a "large hunting knife", type not specified, but why he had only those seven rounds of tracer ammo is a puzzle.

Has anyone else got any good photos of airmen showing their sidearms? There's a well known one of Maj. Dick Bong, a P-38 ace who was America's top scorer, with 40 Jap planes to his known credit. He is widely believed to have gotten others, when he was the only witness. He has a .45 auto in a shoulder holster and a Randall Model 1 knife on his belt. The knife has either a 7 or 8-inch blade; I forget which. His chief rival, Tom McGuire, is pictured with a .45, also in a shoulder holster.

The linked article on Kepford says that he was the top guy in the Navy, with 16 kills. Actually, I think that David McCampbell had 34 kills. His F6F Hellcat was at least as deadly as Kepford's Corsair.

I read somewhere a statement by a Japanese pilot who said that he feared the Hellcat more, as it could get in tight and manuever almost as well as a Zero. Blackburn's book admits that the F4U wasn't able to manuever with the Zero.

Royal Navy test pilot Eric Brown compared the Corsair to the Seafire, saying that the Corsair was a shire horse compared to a thoroughbred pony. He felt that if the Seafire had had better landing gear for naval ops and a long range it could have defeated any other naval fighter. But he was very fond of the Hellcat, which served the Fleet Air Arm as well as with the US Navy. Brown was a vet of aerial combat over Europe, having once encountered a very skilled FW -190 pilot who matched him so evenly that the two eventually broke off combat and returned to their bases. He said that his Spitfire MK IX was better "in the horizontal" and the Focke-Wulf better "in the vertical". Neither man would fight the way the other wanted, and both were so good that they finally gave up trying to kill each other. Brown never mentioned his sidearm.

Anyway...I hope this interested someone. If you encounter photos or mentions by aircrew of their handguns, please post.

T-Star

 

[GatorFarmer]

If you get to Savannah - well I think it is actually Pooler - you'll find the 8th AF Museum. There's a photo of one of the WW2 Mustang Aces on the wall as you go to leave. He's posed in the cockpit of his plane and seems to have some sort of one off or experimental 1911. It's been fitted with a longer barrel and an extended magazine. I believe it also had a front handgrip. I think some of these were made up to test 1911s being turned into ersatz subguns.

In the Escape and Evasion display, there is video footage of a latter day interview with a B17 crewman. He said that he carried two .45 automatics because he couldn't figure out a way to take one of the .50s with him if he bailed out.

Other sidearms, in American hands, that I recall reading mention of:

- a Winchester lever action carbine (I forget caliber) went along on the Doolittle raid

- a pilot in the Pacific had a Luger that he'd somehow traded for

-a 1903 Colt pocket Model .32 was the choice of a B25 pilot, and I remember it was in a custom made shoulder rig

Tracers were carried to use a pistol as a signaling device.

Some commands rounded up all the sidearms after they became problems in the hands of drunk aircrew in their off hours. The N. African campaign saw the last time that people were allowed to go out on the town while armed.

In the autobiographical and quasi classic novel "And Good Bye to Some", Tommy Prime - the hotshot pilot - carried a .38 revolver with tracers that he sometimes fires out the window at the Japanese. However when the narrator and others crash at one point, none of them have a gun with them.

 

[walnutred]

My dad mentioned selling his 1911 to a Marine pilot for $100. A phenomenal sum in 1945. The pilot was preparing for the invasion of Japan and 1911's were evidently bringing a premium. Dad was an air crew member so had the luxury of a little more room than a pilot. He'd long since traded his issued M1 Carbine for a M3 SMG.

 

[n4zov]

If you will post your request for photos over on the U.S. Militaria Forum site under "MILITARY AIRCRAFT & AVIATION " I can guarantee you will get some responses. There are plenty of photo collectors there who have photos of some of the most esoteric stuff.

 

[Bat Guano]

I think Dick Bong's .45 is in the USAF museum in Dayton OH...at least that's my recollection from 2003 or so.

One of the F-4 pilots from Ubon RTAFB carried a .45 with tracers. I know because I got some from a friend stateside for him.

 

[imjin138]

At Shooter's we had a customer who had his father's pistol from WWII. his Dad was a B 25 pilot and flew anti sub patrols in the carribean. The pistol was a nice 4 inch police positive in .32 new police.

 

[cmort666]

I read somewhere a statement by a Japanese pilot who said that he feared the Hellcat more, as it could get in tight and manuever almost as well as a Zero. Blackburn's book admits that the F4U wasn't able to manuever with the Zero.

Although many aircraft could turn inside of a Zero in a highspeed righthand turn, only the Hellcat and the P-38 could turn with it outside of that regime. Use of differential throttle allowed the P-38 to maneuver with the Zero.

 

[feralmerril]

A friend of mine was a chopper pilot in viet nam. He carried a python.

 

[CW Spook]

My wife's grandfather was a pilot in WWI. He carried a S&W 1917, which I now have. When I fly my Chief, I carry a '642.

 

[Texas Star]

Although many aircraft could turn inside of a Zero in a highspeed righthand turn, only the Hellcat and the P-38 could turn with it outside of that regime. Use of differential throttle allowed the P-38 to maneuver with the Zero.

You probably know that the P-38 eventually got special combat flaps that enabled a really tight turn, and the more skilled pilots knew how to bleed off power on one engine and increase it on another to get really tight turns. The P-38 also needed dive brakes or something similar to prevent locking up due to compression in a high speed dive. A number of P-38 drivers were killed when their controls froze due to compression as they approached the speed of sound in a dive. I think they were into the P-38L series before they got all of the refinements needed.

Eric Brown added that he felt that the Spitfire MK XIV would also manuever with the Zero, and was far faster, and could outclimb and outdive the Jap plane. But by the time that MK XIV's reached the Far East, the war was ending. That Mark was, however, in service in Europe from early 1944. The MK VIII was able to deal with Japanese planes easily enough by using its higher speed and basic good qualities. As long as they kept speed above 300 MPH, several Allied planes could beat the Zero and Oscar. Those aircraft were at their best in slower speed aerobatics. But they climbed extremely well!

 

[feralmerril]

When I worked at lockheed there was a old pilot there that once told me after being used to flying p-38s, the 1st time he flew a p-51 he darn near broke his arm in his 1st turn!

 

[Texas Star]

When I worked at lockheed there was a old pilot there that once told me after being used to flying p-38s, the 1st time he flew a p-51 he darn near broke his arm in his 1st turn!

Merril-

Yeah, I recall your mentioning this. It says a lot about the manueverability of the P-51. It was just a hair beneath a Spitfire in turning ability and climbing in a spurt. And it dived better and had a far greater range. The Mustang was in many ways the outstanding single engine fighter of WW II.

But it was much less rugged in a storm or when hit by enemy fire than a P-38 or a P-47.

T-Star

 

[cmort666]

The P-38 also needed dive brakes or something similar to prevent locking up due to compression in a high speed dive. A number of P-38 drivers were killed when their controls froze due to compression as they approached the speed of sound in a dive. I think they were into the P-38L series before they got all of the refinements needed.

There once was a British Marxist in one of the usenet discussion groups running his mouth about U.S. "friendly fire" incidents during the Gulf War.

I'd just been reading "Their Finest Hour", about the Battle of Britain. I asked him what happened to the first sets of speed brakes for the P-38 which were shipped to the U.K.. When he couldn't or wouldn't answer, I pointed out that they were on a U.S.A.A.F. C-54... which was shot down by the R.A.F., presumably because they mistook it for an FW-200.

 

[feralmerril]

There was a incident in world war two where english "friendly fire" shot down a bunch of our gliders going on a invasion. My uncle`s glider was the first one to see what was going on and turn back without unhooking. I recall the story but was too young to get the details. I think I will try to research it.

 

[cmort666]

There was a incident in world war two where english "friendly fire" shot down a bunch of our gliders going on a invasion. My uncle`s glider was the first one to see what was going on and turn back without unhooking. I recall the story but was too young to get the details. I think I will try to research it.

I believe that there was a lot of misdirected anti-aircraft fire at Anzio.

 

[Texas Star]

US Navy pilots shot at New Zealand P-40's so often around Guadalcanal that the NZ pilots had the rear half of their fuselages painted white! That still wasn't a guarantee that they wouldn't be fired on by the dumb sailors!

I wonder what they thought they were shooting at! The Jap Tony wasn't then in the air in that area, and the deep chin radiator on the P-40 is quite distinctive!

On D-Day over Normandy, Gen. Doolittle flew a P-38 over the beaches, because it was so distinctive, it was less likely to draw friendly fire.

Some people are just too trigger happy!

I knew of the incident were the RAF shot down the US supply plane. What a pity...And those P-38 dive brakes were sorely needed, not to mention the human tragedy.

 

[feralmerril]

I guess that friendly fire can be understood. I had a "friend" who opened up on some fire flys in viet nam with a M-60.

 

[GatorFarmer]

The D-Day "invasion stripes" were an attempt to minimize friendly fire. Only P-38s were supposed to fly directly over the landing forces at low altitudes for support as an another attempt to avoid problems, it was felt that the distinctive outline would avoid problems. Something like a dozen were still shot down by Allied gunners. Neither of the two Luftwaffe planes that strafed a beach were lost.

In the days before IFF devices, it was pretty common, both on the ground and in the air. (Still happens today, but you're safer at night these days, at least in the 3rd World, since the locals don't have IR flashers or at least haven't learned to put a piece of electrical tape on a TV remote.)