Please explain the main advantage or disadvatage of JHP vs SJSP?

[Rule3]

I am not a hunter so I have wondered what the major difference in performance (penetration??) Between the semi jacket soft lead nose vs a regular FMJ HP. Say in 357 Mag.

Say a XTP, Golden Saber etc. vs the Remington Express. Is it all about penetration for hunting purposes as compared to a JHP is for expansion in SD loads?

They always advertise penetration for SD loads and FBI measurements so why not the SJ soft point? Over penetration??

Not trying to compare full hard cast lead bullets here.

 

[venomballistics]

I wouldnt say there is really an advantage either way, just a shift in properties.
the hollow cavity, or lack there of just helps to determine how energy is deposited into something.

 

[125JHP]

It also might have something to do with technology. The exposed lead is old tech. Many bullets these days are plated (ok ok "bonded") or use some other process that encases the lead core entirely. THey can also control the expansion better that way. Another factor is indoor shooting ranges often don't allow lead due to fumes and EPA regs or fear thereof. I happen to like the Remington 125gr SJHP in 38/357. I also like the XTP, Golden Sabre, Gold Dot and others.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Case in point: 44Mag, carbine loads.
Here in Indiana we cannot use high powered rifles for deer hunting. The 44Mag has been the mainstay in a carbine as well as all of the Contender/Encore rifle caliber handguns, for deer.

I was the only handloader amongst several friends that were deer hunters. Guess what? Yeah, they wanted me to load their 44Mag rifle for them for deer hunting, so I did.

When we first started; I bought new primed cases, I got them from Pat's Reloading out of Mansfield, OH and they were on sale. From a local distributor, I got the Remington 240gr JSP and went to town. Those loads killed more groundhogs that first year than killing anything else. The one guy takes his 44Mag levergun to bed with him I think, I mean, when he grabs a gun, it just seems to naturally go to that one first! He told me tonight that he has killed 10 deer with it himself in the last 5 years, 2 every season, and with those loads. We have only recovered one bullet. Here:

This was shot into a mature buck @ 135 paces. It entered in front of the right leg and traversed through the body and came out in the middle of the rib cage on the other side.

This bullet came to rest just under the hide on the off side, another view:

Now, take the same basic load, use a 240gr XTP and everything changes. That XTP is a much tougher bullet and @ 50 yards cruised all of the way through a hog's head and came out the back. Now, I am pretty sure that the JSP would not have done that. It would have flattened out much more and spent it's energy inside the animal.

Tougher animals, use the tougher bullets. Actually, I drive the XTP harder than I did the JSP so the affect may be near the same. At the same velocity though, the JSP is going to mushroom much more and quicker.

From my experience, YMMV.

 

[mjb99]

I haven't shot a deer with a pistol cartridge yet, but in my reading on forums, etc., it seems that hunters have had more failures with jhp's than with sp's. By failure, I mean fragmentation, bullet core separation, failure to penetrate heavy bone, etc. This seems to be especially true with lighter calibers, like .357 magnums.

Of course, many handgun hunters just skip the whole jacketed rigormorol (sp?) and go with large bore hardcast bullets...

Matt

 

[Rule3]

Tougher animals, use the tougher bullets. Actually, I drive the XTP harder than I did the JSP so the affect may be near the same. At the same velocity though, the JSP is going to mushroom much more and quicker.

From my experience, YMMV.

That is pretty much my question. As much as I dislike saying it, but we do carry guns for SD, a person is not a tough animal compared to deer, hogs whatever. We are thin skinned, no heavy outer coat etc. Why then are XTP's, Gold Dots, Win PDX etc the preferred SD ammo and not the Semi Jacket soft lead nose??

I doubt in the overall scheme of things it makes little difference, a 357 or a 44 is still formidable whatever bullet.

Yes, technology and advertizing certainly plays a big part in selling "high tech" bullets.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I know some of this has much to do with how well the bullet holds together from the point of exiting the barrel to the point of doing its job inside the target. Everything alters the bullet from point A to point B until it begins its job inside. High end LEO ammo is supposed to be made with exacting standards that allow bullets to hold together better when impacting glass and other standard obstacles between the policeman and his target. They require a bullet to hold together and on impact still be able to expand properly to do their job. That is supposed to be the difference in the Hornady TAP and the TAP FPD that us shlub civies buy. The real deal TAP gets some much higher tolerance, QA, and whatever in the crimped over edge of the hollow point cavity while the FPD stuff isn’t as expensive to produce. Since civies aren’t supposed to be shooting through glass windows and car doors on a regular, we don’t need the high end extra cost bullets while the LEO guys and gals are out there putting it on the line. And if you start talking about autoloader ammo, then I guess you have to involve bullet deformation as it enters the chamber. My cast .45 RNHP bullets look real nice, but in my 1911’s they dent the nose a bit as they chamber. They still shoot straight, but it is annoying. So I would assume some of the designs made for autoloaders have to get a little extra thought in the T&E phase.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

That is pretty much my question. As much as I dislike saying it, but we do carry guns for SD, a person is not a tough animal compared to deer, hogs whatever. We are thin skinned, no heavy outer coat etc. Why then are XTP's, Gold Dots, Win PDX etc the preferred SD ammo and not the Semi Jacket soft lead nose??

Thin-skinned IS exactly why all the fancy HP bullets are preferred - they can be counted on to expand, and don't have the excessive penetration and inferior expansion that the SJSP bullets have, IN HUMAN TERMS, of course. Even in a human, however, reasonable penetration should be reliable, thus the improved HP bullets that we have nowadays.

 

[one eye joe]

I haven't shot a deer with a pistol cartridge yet, but in my reading on forums, etc., it seems that hunters have had more failures with jhp's than with sp's. By failure, I mean fragmentation, bullet core separation, failure to penetrate heavy bone, etc. This seems to be especially true with lighter calibers, like .357 magnums.

Of course, many handgun hunters just skip the whole jacketed rigormorol (sp?) and go with large bore hardcast bullets...

Matt

I haven't shot a deer either. On tough 300+ pound boar, SWCHP ammo does not do a good job. The most appropriate bullet would be a heavy hardcast, than can penetrate and smash bone......

 

[cochise]

Years ago soft point projectiles gave better penetration at pistol velocities. This is an advantage when handgun hunting. With modern advancements in bullet technology, as mentioned, hollow points are doing a fine job both penetrating and expanding. (I like the 300 grn XTP for hunting)

One should not assume but research the particular brand of bullets and match it to his needs.

 

[venomballistics]

Years ago soft point projectiles gave better penetration at pistol velocities. This is an advantage when handgun hunting. With modern advancements in bullet technology, as mentioned, hollow points are doing a fine job both penetrating and expanding. (I like the 300 grn XTP for hunting)

One should not assume but research the particular brand of bullets and match it to his needs.

ye olde 300 grain xtp ... never cared for that one.
It barely has a cavity and never did anything a cast 310 couldnt do.
the XTP line however does present a little bit of a cavity rule book. compare the depth and see what these things really do to things. my guess is that you'll drill it down to the 200 grain and replace everything else.

 

[125JHP]

...
the XTP line however does present a little bit of a cavity rule book. compare the depth and see what these things really do to things.....

This is an interesting subject... could you elaborate a bit more on the XTP properties your aware of?

 

[Rule3]

I "think" (scary) what VB is saying is the XTP bullet does not have as big or open HP as some other bullets. At least that's what they look like to me

 

[venomballistics]

This is an interesting subject... could you elaborate a bit more on the XTP properties your aware of?

sure ...
the XTP in 44 cal comes in the weights of 180 200 240 and 300
looking at the cavity designs its two stacked cones.
the first cone is uniform across all weight the second cone varies in depth in the 300G version, the second cone is barely a dimple in the point of the first 240 runs a deeper, more defined secondary cone while the 200G version has the deepest secondary cone of the entire line.
the 300 is clearly intended as a deep penetrator and honestly has little or no advantage over a a cast flat point of similar weight. Here the point is more of an ad gimmick than any sort of performance enhancer.
240 grain with its deeper secondary cone is a predictable performer that tries to find a balance between expansion and penetration.
the 200 grain has the deepest secondary cone, where the result is rather explosive, maximizing the production of crimson mist within the XTP line.
the 180 grain takes a step backwards and has a secondary cone about half way between the 200 and the 240. this one loses some of the devastating qualities of the 200 while sacrificing penetration as well.
Since I have the capacity to bore molds Ive been able to experiment with HP pins within a given bullet.
in one 240 design I had 7 pins ranging from mild to wild and right on into uncalled for and youve got to be joking, where the cavity extended to within 3/32" from the base.
the amount of control over penetration and expansion is astonishing. Cavity depth seems the dominant factor.

 

[Littledragon777]

I have killed 9 Missouri bucks and more than twice as many does using my 44 mag handloads with 240 grain XTPs. Not a failure in the bunch. Most shots were at 30 to 75 yards using my Super Redhawk 9 1/2 inch with 4 power Burris scope using 23.5 grains of Win 296. This setup works well for me and the deer don't know waht hit them.

 

[Hook686]

...
the 300 is clearly intended as a deep penetrator and honestly has little or no advantage over a a cast flat point of similar weight. Here the point is more of an ad gimmick than any sort of performance enhancer....

The 'Jello shooters' at

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000824#000004

DocGKR
Ammo Wan Kenobi
Member # 582

Member Rated:
posted 08-30-2004 12:26
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The answers are in the referenced threads above:


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The load with the clearly SUPERIOR performance in both the handgun and carbine was the Hornady 300 gr XTP, with 20+ inches of penetration, consistent expansion in excess of 0.70” and superb weight retention. Unfortunately, I do not currently have time to type out the complete results, but here are a few random comments--the Hornady 240 gr and 180 gr loadings also performed well, the Remington 275 gr Core-Lokt was a good overall performer, the Remington 180 gr and Winchester 210 gr Silvertip loads had excessive muzzle flash, the Hydrashok fragmented badly, the Silvertip did well in the revolver and not the carbine, the Gold Dot did well in the carbine and not the revolver, the Cast Core has VERY deep penetration, but no expansion,

Bottom line—BEST overall .44 Magnum load is the Hornady 300 gr XTP.
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In this situation, chronograph data is irrelevant without corresponding information on bullet terminal performance.

As I already stated, the Hornady XTP's performed very well in a .44 Mag carbine, as did a couple of other loads--pick whichever loading you and your carbine like and be aware of what is behind your target, as most .44 Mag bullets have the potential to exit the target.


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Posts: 3043 | From: Palo Alto, CA | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged |

disagree with you. They reported the 300 grain XTP as the best .357 magnum round.

Do you have any supportive data for your statement ?

 

[Fishslayer]

disagree with you. They reported the 300 grain XTP as the best .357 magnum round.

Whoa!

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

disagree with you. They reported the 300 grain XTP as the best .357 magnum round.

I double disagree with you there...

Bottom line—BEST overall .44 Magnum load is the Hornady 300 gr XTP.

I can' imagine loading a 300 gr bullet in a 357 mag and have room for enough powder to penetrate much of anything!
John

 

[125JHP]

More XTP questions

VB, sounds like a very interesting study you did there... I don't have any 44 XTP handy to look at but I do have 45acp 185, 200 & 240gr and also some Rem Golden Sabre, Gold Dots, Silver Tips, Hydra Shoks and some Magtech as well. The only Rem SJHP I have are the 38/357. I see what you mean about the different cavity depths among the various offereings. This is something to keep in mind when selecting ammo.

Visually I can see that the GoldDot has a very deep cavity, the Golden Sabre not as deep and the XTP rather shallow. The fact that Golden Sabres separate from their jacket fairly regularly is well known from several available tests, so they are not my #1 choice. Gold Dots are heralded as the best most reliable in the SD expansion department but their component price reflects it too. MidwayUSA sells 230gr GoldDot PPSB for $28/100 while the XTP variant costs only $22 ... in 40 S&W the difference is $26 to $18 /100 which is significant. Ideally we would all like an unlimited budget to practice with what we carry but that is not the reality unless uncle sugar is supplying the fodder. I might buy one box of expensive SD ammo to load my EDC magazine with but I want to at the very least practice with reloads that duplicate the factory performance, POA/POI and expansion.

Since XTP are cheaper, I would like to use those for general use but I have read various conflicting reports on their expansion reliability. Most hunting stories say they functioned flawlessly. Many wetpack and water jug tests report anywhere from "great" to "so-so" results for the XTP, while GoldDot's test usually have glowing remarks. Professional testing in gelatin have shown consistently good results for the XTP across most calibers and weights.

I also compared the published velocities for factory loaded Speer GoldDot (890) and Hornady XTP~TAP (850~950) but don't see much difference in velocity between the two (XTP-TAP is only 60fps faster than GoldDot). Does the bonded copper (plating) and deep cavity perform that much more consistently than the XTP?

What single factor could affect the expansion reliability of the XTP? I have concluded (without any factual basis) that the XTP must need a little higher velocity for reliable expansion, like found in hunting applications. What is that velocity window for 4" pistols? That is what I am trying to determine for the various calibers I load (9-38/357-40-44-45) but at the moment, like factory data shows, I am think that at least 900-950 is the minimum for XTP while 850-900 seems reasonable for GoldDot. To achieve these I find I need to be at the upper end of most published load data and into +P territory.

does anyone have any other info on XTP or velocity requirements for reliable expansion ?