The Jacketed HP VS the Semi Jacketed HP for SD reloads.

[Rule3]

I know most or lots of forum members here like good old lead bullets for SD rounds. I was interested in the main difference in semi jacketed HP versus the Bonded fully jacked HP.

Just for example say a Remington Golden Saber Bullet(or Gold Dot, XTP etc) as compared to the Remington Express semi jacketed HP say in 357 Magnum.

It seems the Golden Saber (or similar) are primarily listed as a SD bullet, but the Remington Semi Jacketed (with a HP lead nose) is more of a hunting bullet.

Why is the question? If it is a hunting bullet wouldn't it be as good as a SD bullet??? Expansion vs penetration etc etc??

 

[cjw3]

I wonder sometimes if we aren't being talked into fancy SD loads by the ammo companies when most of the time a plain old HP would be perfectly fine.

I am including myself in the above, since I carry Speer 135 grain Gold Dot HP's in my Model 60 .38 Special. Supposedly, the load is "optimized" for short barrels....which I think means a more suitable powder and a bullet that will penetrate adequately with some degree of expansion.

The reality is that accurate shot placement with adequate penetration is the goal. Back in the old days when a HP was a HP, I loaded and fired them in different cartridges at things as varied as sand, wet newspaper, etc., as well as doing some hunting or pest control work. When the shot was well placed they seemed to do fine; otherwise, not so much.

 

[Bullzaye]

I don't have any "expert" opinion, or a lot of facts to back up what I'm going to say. This is just my opinion based on what I've read and observed over the years.

I don't necessarily lean one way or the other as far as SJHP vs. JHP. When it comes to choosing SD ammo, I just do some research to find the reputation and/or historical performance of a particular make of ammo, and let that be my guide, irrespective of one ammo being jacketed or semi-jacketed.

As far as your question as to whether a hunting bullet would be as good as a SD bullet, well...maybe. In general, my expectation would be that a bullet designed for hunting would tend to penetrate more deeply before exhibiting much expansion than a bullet designed for SD would (assuming that when we're talking SD, we mean against 2-legged aggressors, and not 4-legged.) So, a bullet designed for hunting would be probably at least as effective as a FMJ bullet for defensive use, and possibly more so. However, I would still expect a quality cartridge designed for SD to perform better. Of course, if your self-defence scenario were to require shooting through some form of barricade or some such thing, the answer might be different.

Obviously shot placement is always important...but that will apply regardless of SD ammo, JHP, SJHP, RNL or FMJ.

Tim

 

[Rule3]

I agree, especially on the bigger calibers. I do not think it makes much difference in a 357 Mag what bullet is used in a 2 legged SD round.

What started me on this was why is Remington Express so expensive compared to others. (All ammo is expensive but the express seems more so)

I would think that a soft lead nose HP with a semi jacket would be the best of both worlds.?

I can only find or have 158 gr Gold Dots and XTP's so I can not compare them to a semi Jacketed bullet.

 

[Paul5388]

There was a time when you could buy Golden Sabers at a very reasonable price. I've found them to be sufficient for most purposes, if they have a little velocity behind them. A .38 Special at about 1200 fps works well, as does a .357 at 1400 fps or so.

The one that has basically remained unchanged over the years is the Sierra 125 gr JHC. It's still a good performer, but a little harder to get the same velocity a Golden Saber will do.

 

[G-ManBart]

Reloads, of any kind, for SD are what I'd politely call a "poor choice" for a lot of reasons. The manufacturers don't sell their best bullets as components, we can't load them on our little hobby machines nearly as well as ammo manufacturers (my biggest is a Dillon 1050, and it's still a toy), and if you ever have to use them, GSR evidence won't/can't be admitted in court, so you can be totally screwing yourself from a legal defense standpoint, i.e. "bad guy was only 3ft away with a pick axe when he was shot, determined by GSR evidence"....that goes out the window.

Despite all of that, the reason why you should want the latest and greatest bullets, that are only available as loaded ammo, is simple.

The testing protocols that are used to gauge ammo are constantly updated based off real-world use (shooting bad guys). Every year they get more data, that data is used to adjust the tests and how much weight is given to different criteria. The reality is that the test results, and street results have gotten much closer to matching one another, with the caveat that it will never be an exact science, because bullets do weird things in soft tissue.

Carrying a lead bullet, a SJHP, or some 10+ year old design (XTP etc) for SD is just silly....really, how much does a box or two of quality ammo cost???

To the specific question, there are SJHP's designed for SD use, and some for hunting use. Those for SD will likely be designed to expand more easily than those for hunting. In a hunting scenario you don't want the bullet to explode if it hits bone, and it's better to have a bullet that over penetrates than over expands...you can follow the blood trail in a hunting scenario. SD ammo needs to expand larger, and quicker, in an effort to hit something vital, to stop the bad guy right now. The question is whether you know which kind you'd be getting...most SJHP's sold that I've seen have been more suitable for hunting (where reloading makes sense to tune the load to the gun). R,

 

[Rule3]

I carry factory loads, this got steered off in another direction. We already had the long thread with Massad Ayoob.

I really only wanted to know the difference between JHP and Semi Jacketed HP.

I carry factory Gold Dots or Remington GS. The new Winchester PDX appears to be a winner also.

 

[RidgwayCO]

My only caution is to be wary of the Remington SJHP bullets. I ordered 500 of the 158gr SJHP bullets, and they all measured .3560" to .3565" in diameter. When seated in Remington brass using my normal RCBS dies, I could not get the brass sized down enough to get an adequate friction-fit with any of these bullets. After sending the bullets back to Remington (and having them tell me the bullets "met our specifications"), my solution was to use Starline brass and sell the Remington stuff. YMMV.

 

[Steve C]

Why is the question? If it is a hunting bullet wouldn't it be as good as a SD bullet??? Expansion vs penetration etc etc??

The semi jacketed HP's are the older original type jacketed hollow points and the fully jacketed XTP's, Golden Sabers and the like are the later designs.

The current JHP's loaded in self defense ammo have been developed to try and solve some of the perceived problems with earlier type bullets when used on people. One is to ensure expansion over a larger range of velocities and penetration through various intermediate media. The second is to prevent fragmentation and ensure adequate penetration.

While the older stye SJHP's will work fine for self defense most of the time they don't have as much flexibility or reliability. Generally it takes a minimum velocity of 1,000 fps at the muzzle to ensure expansion with the older type JHP's. In the .38 spl for example that's quite achievable with 4" or longer barrels but load them in a snub nose and the velocity drops too much to get reliable expansion. The exposed lead nose of the old style bullet also has a tendency to fold up if striking anything very solid be it a intermediate barrier or a bone. If it closes the hollow the bullet will fail to expand. The heavier the bullet the more difficulty there is in reaching the necessary velocity. Hunters usually use a longer barrel and this is the likely reason 158gr JHP's are labeled for hunting while lighter bullets like the 110 and 125gr are labeled for both.

The 125gr JHP's in either old or current self defense style are probably the best choice for self defense, esp. in the .357 mag. Heavier bullets are for those types of game where you want deeper penetration.

 

[Rule3]

Another "issue" is the bullet weight. In a small snubby say, it's more difficult to get a 158 gr bullet moving fast enough. A lot of manufacturers are now advertising 110, 125 weight bullets but they are hard to find. I would think the lighter faster would be easier to shoot in the smaller weapons. I have shot 158 grain JHP out of Scandium J frames and it's no fun, plus I do not believe it's worth the extra blast and recoil as a bullet is only going to go so fast out of a 2" barrel. Might as well just use a 38 Spl +P.

 

[G-ManBart]

Another "issue" is the bullet weight. In a small snubby say, it's more difficult to get a 158 gr bullet moving fast enough. A lot of manufacturers are now advertising 110, 125 weight bullets but they are hard to find. I would think the lighter faster would be easier to shoot in the smaller weapons. I have shot 158 grain JHP out of Scandium J frames and it's no fun, plus I do not believe it's worth the extra blast and recoil as a bullet is only going to go so fast out of a 2" barrel. Might as well just use a 38 Spl +P.

If you carry factory ammo, why does any of this matter? You can easily get any weight from 110gr on up in factory ammo, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Cor-Bon's DPX 110gr loads have surprisingly low recoil for how fast they're going, and I'm confident they'd both expand and penetrate just fine, even out of a snubby. I've shot and chronographed them out of a Smith 640 so far...very mild.

Lighter bullets going faster will have more recoil/snappier recoil regardless of what size gun you have. The faster the gas column pushing the bullet is going, the faster it pushes back into your hand...essentially it's a rocket effect. We've proved this many, many times over in practical shooting competition. Heavier bullets going slower will feel softer at the same relative power level....it's like night and day when you compare side by side.

If you got more recoil out of the 158s, it was because there was more velocity. If you're not actually chronographing loads before comparing how they feel, you really can't make any sort of comparison....it's just a guess.

These guys have done quite a bit of testing with a lot of different loads (good quality SD ammo), and different barrel lengths (and different gun models). Tons of helpful data:

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/

 

[m1gunner]

As a hunter, I want a through and through shot. Some expansion, but not maximum expansion.

On a SD round, I would rather see more expansion and less penetration.