Please help ID this gun

M

Mlschnei

Member
Joined
May 30, 2025
Messages
13
Reaction score
11
image4.jpegimage0.jpegimage3.jpegimage2.jpegimage1.jpegimage0.jpegimage4.jpegimage0.jpegimage3.jpegimage2.jpegimage1.jpegimage0.jpeg

I bought this pistol on an online auction recently.
It was listed as a hand ejector triple lock first model,
converted to .455 mark II webley. 4.5" barrel.
Lots of markings that I assume are British.
Do you think it has been re-finished?
Where these commonly converted by various individuals
or sent to the factory. I have the original grips, but it came
with these cool pearl ones, so I had to try them out.
What would guess the shipment date would be?

Thanks for any information you could provide - - - New Guy
 
Register to hide this ad
Looks like a conversion to 45 Auto Rimmed cartridge (45 A R) Most likely from the orig 455 caliber.
The new caliber marking wiped out the last '5' in the orig 455 caliber marking. Then the 'A R' was hand stamped added.
The hollowed out distorted shadow shape in the plateing shows where the metal was removed to make the change.

Polished and refinished to Nickel I believe. Some Gold plating on the trigger and hammer (?).

The bbl proofs are English / Birmingham Proof Hs marks .
They look like they may have gotten touched up a little by hand engraving after the polishing and buffing was done in that area of the caliber change.
The circles around each mark look irregular and broken as do the crowns above each mark.

There should be a firing proof on the Frame and one on the cylinder as well.
A View Proof mark (BV) may also appear with those.
But any of these proof marks may have been lost to refinishing or be so faint at this point that they are hard to recognize.

The circles around each mark signify the proofing of a firearm Not of English Make and that style of proof mark was introd
in the 1954 Proof LAw .
Prior to that under the 1925 rules, the gun would have actually had a small marking that said 'Not English Make'

Just my thoughts.
 
You have a .44 Hand Ejector First Model, aka the triple lock. Probably from ca. 1910. It was made in .44 Russian, .44 Special, .38-40, .44-40, and .45 Colt. I would guess from the caliber stamping the latter. About 15K were made. Yours has been heavily refinished. It is possible it could have been rechambered or modified for .455 but if so it is not marked that way. If a .45 Colt cartridge can be chambered in it, that is probably what it originally was chambered for. It also could have been later rechambered or modified to the .45 Auto Rim. That cartridge did not exist until the early 1920s. A good picture of the rear face of the cylinder might establish that. The barrel should be 4" or 5". Is it? Is there a number stamped inside the extractor rod recess? Those who are much more familiar with the early triple locks can hopefully provide you with better guesses than I. In its present condition, I hope you didn't pay too much for it, as it is more of a curio than a collectible.
 
Last edited:
MelvinWalker said:
I kinda like it in a pimping kind of way. I'd have bought it....If it's converted to auto-rim, then ACP moons should work, no?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. The chamber mouths could have been recessed deeply to accommodate the .45 AR's thick rims. Not enough headspace to accommodate a moon clip. Exactly why I requested a good clear picture of the rear face of the cylinder, to see exactly what was done to it, if anything. There are several other possibilities.
 
Last edited:
Thanks everyone for your quick replies.
I guess I should have asked the experts before ordering
a box of .455 webley ammo (LOL).
I've included a few more pics of the cylinder and a
a couple (probably meaningless) stamps.

This gun was misrepresented as .455 but I think I'll keep
it (only paid $400). I'd like to find something I could shoot
through it. Is .45 AR available?

It is also a 4" not 4.5.
The only number I can find under the extractor rod end
matches the 4203 on the butt.IMG_3888.jpegIMG_3889.jpegIMG_3890.jpeg
 
The 455 rounds may fit. The best way to convert a .455 revolver to .45 Colt is to recess the chamber mouths until there is adequate headspace to allow the cylinder to close with it loaded with .45 Colt ammunition. The .455 round has a larger and thinner rim so it can be used in the same .45 Colt cylinder as it has approximately the same case diameter as the .45 Colt. As there is no apparent recess at the cylinder mouth, it seems to me that (1) there has been no conversion of the chambers to .45 AR, (2) the chambers were originally cut for .45 Colt, and (3) the .455 rounds will probably fit and fire. And is even possible that the gun was originally chambered in .455. All this is hypothetical pending actual trial. Also, you should verify that .45 Colt rounds will chamber properly and the cylinder can be opened and closed easily. If .45 Colt ammunition will fit, you can also use it. But you should use only light Cowboy .45 Colt ammunition for safety's sake. $400 is not a terrible price for a triple lock as a shootable curio. FYI, the .455 case head has a .478" base diameter, while the .45 Colt case head has a .481" diameter. They should interchange even if your revolver is actually chambered for .45 Colt.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the advice on shooting.455s thru it.
These are the grips that were on it.
Look original to me.
IMG_3891.jpeg
 
Mlschnei said:
Thanks for the advice on shooting.455s thru it.
These are the grips that were on it.
Look original to me.
View attachment 763582
Click to expand...
They well could be. That grip style was used from about 1911 to 1920. If the barrel is 4", that would probably be highly unusual. Or the barrel could have been cut. I am now thinking that it might be worthwhile to order a letter for it to see if some of the many blanks regarding original chambering, finish, and barrel length can be filled. It could be more interesting than I first thought.
 
Last edited:
Clearly 4.5". It seems evident that a longer barrel has been shortened. 6-1/2" and 5" barrels are most abundant. I don't believe S&W made any in 4-1/2", unless by special order. The British Broad Arrow stamp on the top left of the frame indicates Crown property. Reasons why getting a letter might be advisable.
 
Last edited:
The stamp on the lower right edge of the left side plate is the Birmingham Proof Hs 'date code'
The mark indicates the proofing was done in 1951. That was likely for the revolver being passed into civilian/commercial sales. It would require such proofing. Also it would require proofing if any alterations like rechambering, bbl cutting, etc had been done to it.

The mark on the left side of the frame up high at the cylinder opening is the British Govt Inspection mark
BroadArrow for the Property of the British Govt.
Crown/A2/E is the actual Inspectors marking.
The A2 is the individual inspector
The E denotes it was done at the Royal Small Arms Factory @ Enfield.
This was done when the revolver(s) were received by the Brit govt , Inspected and Proof fired.

There is a very small 'Crossed Pennants' mark on the left side of the bbl ring.
That was the Brit Military small arms proof mark that was stamped at that time.

The cylinder w/o a ser on the back side certainly suggests some reduction there.
The extractor face itself has coarse lathe tool marks from what I might assume to be thinning it down

Going back to my first post about the proof markings.
The bbl proofs are from 1954 and forward. That by the style of the stamps themselves.
I left out that there should be the cart info (caliber & length of case in inches and the pressure in English Tons/inch sq) on the bbl. None of that exists on the bbl.

But..we now know by seeing the Birmingham Proof Date Code that it was commercially proofed in 1951.
Proofed under the 1925 Proof rules..different markings

Completely different proof law rules.
The Proof stamps should not be within the circles.
There SHOULD be the small req box with 'Not English Make' within it stamped on the frame.
There never would have been the cartridge info stamped on the bbl. So not being there now is not surprising.

That along with the funky hand cut look of the Birmingham 1954&>proofs that are on the bbl now, I suspect someone tried very hard to make it look the way it does.
Why, I don't know.
Maybe it's just a plain .455 and they went way out of their way to try and convince a future buyer it was anything but that.

Try some different ammo in the thing and see what you have.

I certainly would have bought it at that price. The grips that came on it are worth nearly that these days.
 
You have a British Service Revolver (BSR) made for them under contract by S&W for WWI.

There are four versions, the first two and the fourth were triple locks, yours is a second version numbered in a special serial number range for the second, third and fourth version BSRs. Yours likely shipped in 1915.

They were all chambered for the longer 455 MK I black powder cartridge but were intended for use with the shorter 455 MK II smokeless cartridge. All had 6.5" barrels; yours has been cut.

Yours is converted by shaving the rear face of the cylinder (the serial number is shaved off), to shoot 45 AR. It will shoot 45 ACP with half or full moon clips but should not be used. The cylinder is not heat treated for the higher pressure of ACP. The lower pressure of AR is ok and the same as 455.

If you reload the longer 455 MKI cases they will head space on the shoulder in the chambers and stick out of the rear of the shaved cylinder about .040" more than if the case rim was seated against the cylinder face as it was designed before the cylinder was shortened Therefore they will still shoot in your gun as modified. The shorter MKII cases will not work without a spacer made by modifying a full moon clip, which you can use to shoot up the box of MK ll ammo you already purchased.

You have a very fun triple lock to enjoy and shoot that would normally be much, much, more expensive to acquire!!
 
Last edited:
Wow. So much information. My head is spinning.
You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for taking
the time to educate a rookie.

Once I get the ammo in I will look into moon clips, which
I know nothing about.
 
I will add a caution. Moon clips are used with .45 ACP cartridges which have high operating pressures. I would not recommend using them in that TL, certainly not very often. If .45 Colt cartridges (Cowboy) fit OK, and they may or may not, I would use them. .45 AR cartridges are not easy to come by, and have the same potential pressure problem as the .45 ACP. Would be nice to have some shooting friends who could supply you with various cartridge sizes to play with.
 
Good idea.
Although the 45 Cowboy is too short being the same length as ACP. So the cartridge would chamber too deep in the shortened cylinder the same as 455 MKII, and would also require a moon clip spacer. However, because it has a thicker rim than 455 (.015" thicker) and I'm told the triple lock firing pin is a bit longer than modern Smith revolvers it just might work.

45 Schofield cowboy ammo would work better. It's longer, about the same length as 455 MKI and also has a thicker rim. The 455 MKI shoulder in the chambers will keep it from going all the way into the shortened cylinder. And the rim would not rest against the face of the shortened cylinder.

45 AR is perfectly safe to shoot in that gun, It is not factory loaded to the high pressure of 45 ACP BECAUSE it's not designed to operate the slide of the 1911 semi auto pistol!
 
Last edited:
I am still curious about the possibility of a .45 AR conversion as stamped. I cannot imagine that it would have been done in England, or indeed anywhere else in the world other than the USA. It is about as uniquely an American cartridge as you can find.
 
I also can't imagine it being done in England either. It's not the first time I've seen a 455 converted to and specifically marked only for 45 AR. Although of course it allows the use of ACP, I consider it a case of a conscientious gunsmith making the point that the conversion was specifically for AR and to differentiate it from ACP. Because the ACP pressure rating is about 25% higher than AR and what the gun was designed for as being safe.
 
Last edited:
Hondo44 said:
I also can't imagine it being done in England either. It's not the first time I've seen a 455 converted to and specifically marked only for 45 AR. Although of course it allows the use of ACP, I consider it a case of a conscientious gunsmith making the point that the conversion was specifically for AR and to differentiate it from ACP. Because the ACP pressure rating is about 25% higher than AR and what the gun was designed for as being safe.
Click to expand...


Jim, normally I agree with what you post. However, I truly believe that when this conversion was done (I'm guessing 1940s-1950s) 99% of the gunsmiths never thought about .45 ACP having higher pressures than .455 ammo. I've been fooling with these large frame revolvers since the 1970s and it wasn't until I joined this forum that I learned that the US government mandated S&W 1917s be heat treated.
 
Good morning gentlemen.
I have apparently acquired a fairly interesting little
pistol. I am saving all your comments and now
have almost enough to write a book about it 🙂.

At some point I hope to get a letter.
When I do I'll post results here and also any
ammunition I successfully shoot through it.

Martin
 
Letters for these BSR revolvers posted on this forum typically only indicate the date shipped to Remington Arms, the procurement agent for the UK.

On the rare occasion that one of these was returned to the factory for conversion, factory work orders may be available from the S&W Historical Foundation. Your conversion is clearly not a factory conversion however.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

H
Reloading .455 Webley Mark II
Replies
6
Views
361
minconrevo
M
4
Smith & Wesson .455 Hand Ejector Mk11 Screw needed
Replies
9
Views
793
quietman123
Q
Casual Smith Nut
  • Locked
***SOLD PLEASE CLOSE***Ruger 44 spl Vaquero Lipseys 4.75”
Replies
3
Views
2K
mtgianni
M
M
Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector First Model (Triple Lock) Revolver A Comparative Rarity
Replies
29
Views
4K
Hondo44
H
R
  • Locked
Expired/Withdrawn .41 Bronze Bore Brushes NIP; Bbls&cyls in .38S&W; M66 bbls/Cyls/Yokes; Dade K loaders NIP
Replies
9
Views
2K
RWJ
R

Latest posts

Back
Top