Can someone help me identify this Smith and Wesson 38? Looks like it may be military issue (has US X stamped on it). What year and model? Serial Number 480459. Thank you in advance for any help.
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Please help identify
- Thread starter jdw43844
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Welcome aboard from coastal North Carolina.
I'm guessing it is a .38 double action 4th model just by the SN and pics in the 4th Ed.. If so, the SN range 322701 to 539000 with 216,300 manufactured circa 1895-1909.
I'm guessing it is a .38 double action 4th model just by the SN and pics in the 4th Ed.. If so, the SN range 322701 to 539000 with 216,300 manufactured circa 1895-1909.
You probably know, but it is chambered in .38 S&W caliber, not .38 SPL.
Jim Watson
Member
The US X may show ownership by the old U.S. Express Co. 1854-1914.
US Express Co
Hey Great find!
It is a U S EXPRESS Co
Owned and issued Smith & Wesson 38 TB.
Most had property numbers stamped DEEP with large font on the side of the frame along with oversized U S X or U S EX.
The U S Express Co purchased thousands of these begining in the early 1890’s. Most of the contracts were New Departures Safety hammers.
Yours is a very late example.
Murph
Hey Great find!
It is a U S EXPRESS Co
Owned and issued Smith & Wesson 38 TB.
Most had property numbers stamped DEEP with large font on the side of the frame along with oversized U S X or U S EX.
The U S Express Co purchased thousands of these begining in the early 1890’s. Most of the contracts were New Departures Safety hammers.
Yours is a very late example.
Murph
Update
From my research of the U.S. EXPRESS guns literally all of the confirmed examples have property numbers stamped on them. More often they have a very deep stamped serial number along with a property number on the double actions. That additional property number signifies the size of the contract.
Also, all of my confirmed double action examples documented are 38 New Departures safety hammer variations. These “confirmed” examples were authenticated by historical letters provided by U.S. railway Express in the 1950’s through 1970’s when they went out of business and unfortunately the records were lost or destroyed. However, I have several copies of authentication letters in my lengthy file for U.S. Express guns.
I have never seen or documented any variation of double action hammered example with authentic U.S.X. Markings on them.
It is possible that the OP’s example is legit but I have never seen or documented a hammered variation this late in serial number or any other serial number range for that matter.
You would need to find another one or find one with an authentication letter from U. S. Railway express co.
You could also get a factory historical letter to see where this gun was shipped? If it was shipped to Chicago along with several guns or sizable shipment that would support that it is an Express gun.
Murph
From my research of the U.S. EXPRESS guns literally all of the confirmed examples have property numbers stamped on them. More often they have a very deep stamped serial number along with a property number on the double actions. That additional property number signifies the size of the contract.
Also, all of my confirmed double action examples documented are 38 New Departures safety hammer variations. These “confirmed” examples were authenticated by historical letters provided by U.S. railway Express in the 1950’s through 1970’s when they went out of business and unfortunately the records were lost or destroyed. However, I have several copies of authentication letters in my lengthy file for U.S. Express guns.
I have never seen or documented any variation of double action hammered example with authentic U.S.X. Markings on them.
It is possible that the OP’s example is legit but I have never seen or documented a hammered variation this late in serial number or any other serial number range for that matter.
You would need to find another one or find one with an authentication letter from U. S. Railway express co.
You could also get a factory historical letter to see where this gun was shipped? If it was shipped to Chicago along with several guns or sizable shipment that would support that it is an Express gun.
Murph
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Jim Watson
Member
The number in the OP as serial number 480459 is on the right side of the frame cutting across the top edge of the S&W logo.
OK, what is the conventional butt serial number? Could 480459 be the Express number, or the serial number repeated as an Express ID?
OK, what is the conventional butt serial number? Could 480459 be the Express number, or the serial number repeated as an Express ID?
Property number
Jim,
That’s a lengthy subject.
U.S.Express had several contracts. If we are specifically talking about Smith & Wesson double actions then both are correct.
They purchased huge numbers of double action Departure models on contract with two Major Distributors that I have tracked.
Some of the contracts like the OP’s gun have the serial number stamped deeply on the frame or sometimes on the barrel followed by a second “Property stamped contract size number “ elsewhere on the frame. That number represents a numerical size of the order.
Example : 175685. 3465
The 3465 is the actual number of the gun in the contract. So that contract actually reached 3465 guns. Some of the Express contracts were huge and spanned many years.
Other contracts did not have that additional number which from my survey represented a smaller order usually 12,25, or 60 guns.
It’s also very possible that the additional number was stamped at a later date that represented an inventory number of the total pistols turned in prior to our entry into WWI.
I personally believe based on the matching die stamps that they were numbered at the same time as a continuation of the contract but either position still represents huge numbers of pistols over about a 30 year span.
So the OP’s gun is likely the real deal but a very late and small contract that’s like near impossible to prove legit unless you find more of them. Good luck with that.
If that was my gun I would most definitely get a factory letter. Make sure you tell the historian on your form that you believe it’s an express gun and that you need to know where, when it was shipped and how many guns in the shipment.
This one was likely a small shipment possibly to Chicago but not necessarily.
Murph
Jim,
That’s a lengthy subject.
U.S.Express had several contracts. If we are specifically talking about Smith & Wesson double actions then both are correct.
They purchased huge numbers of double action Departure models on contract with two Major Distributors that I have tracked.
Some of the contracts like the OP’s gun have the serial number stamped deeply on the frame or sometimes on the barrel followed by a second “Property stamped contract size number “ elsewhere on the frame. That number represents a numerical size of the order.
Example : 175685. 3465
The 3465 is the actual number of the gun in the contract. So that contract actually reached 3465 guns. Some of the Express contracts were huge and spanned many years.
Other contracts did not have that additional number which from my survey represented a smaller order usually 12,25, or 60 guns.
It’s also very possible that the additional number was stamped at a later date that represented an inventory number of the total pistols turned in prior to our entry into WWI.
I personally believe based on the matching die stamps that they were numbered at the same time as a continuation of the contract but either position still represents huge numbers of pistols over about a 30 year span.
So the OP’s gun is likely the real deal but a very late and small contract that’s like near impossible to prove legit unless you find more of them. Good luck with that.
If that was my gun I would most definitely get a factory letter. Make sure you tell the historian on your form that you believe it’s an express gun and that you need to know where, when it was shipped and how many guns in the shipment.
This one was likely a small shipment possibly to Chicago but not necessarily.
Murph
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Additional info
I don’t have my file with me but here is an example on the internet that I have already documented. This one is 100% correct.
Notice the serial number on the barrel and the additional contract or what is also termed as rack number stamped on the frame?
That’s how many guns were in this contract that began with the model 1.
As I mentioned before, some of the contracts were huge.
Also if you look closely at the number 4 in both the rack number and the barrel serial number you will notice that they are different die stamps.
So this gun supports that many were stamped later with a rack or inventory number that represented a total amount of that model in possession by the company at the time the inventory was taken.
Murph
I don’t have my file with me but here is an example on the internet that I have already documented. This one is 100% correct.
Notice the serial number on the barrel and the additional contract or what is also termed as rack number stamped on the frame?
That’s how many guns were in this contract that began with the model 1.
As I mentioned before, some of the contracts were huge.
Also if you look closely at the number 4 in both the rack number and the barrel serial number you will notice that they are different die stamps.
So this gun supports that many were stamped later with a rack or inventory number that represented a total amount of that model in possession by the company at the time the inventory was taken.
Murph
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