Plz ID this old gun for me thx.

[kf4ocv]

I was at LGS back in December when an old hand ejector caught my eye. I asked the owner if it was an I frame. He did not know much about it but did allow me to take a picture of it. Here's what I know......

Type: Hand Ejector
Serial #: 167754
Caliber: 38 Long Colt
Barrel Length: 3 or 4"
Sights: Fixed
Does have strain screw
Does have trigger guard screw
Finish; Nickel

If anyone has any thoughts on it please let me know.THX

 

[Budnjax]

The LGS should know exactly what model it is

since they have to keep that information in their federal records...what does it say on the sale tag?

 

[DWalt]

What was the location of the SN? And what is the complete caliber marking on the barrel? I wouldn't expect that caliber stamping at that SN, but if it is a K-frame Model of 1902, it would date from about 1910-11.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

The LGS should know exactly what model it is

since they have to keep that information in their federal records...what does it say on the sale tag?

It doesn't matter what it says on the sales tag. The LGS does NOT necessarily know exactly what model it is, nor do his employees. And if he did, he might not correctly transmit it to the sales tag. These are not hypotheses of mine, but, rather, observations that I have made from time to time. Let's hear from the folks who know a little about this, with additional info from S&N.

".38 Long Colt" on an S&W?

 

[Absalom]

".38 Long Colt" on an S&W?

It likely has the ".38 Special & US Service Ctg" stamping on the barrel, the .38 Long Colt being identified as the latter, but as DWalt indicated, the serial given seems too high for that caliber stamping.

 

[handejector]

It is a 38 M&P with a 5" barrel and a round butt.

Mechanically, it will be a 1905-3rd Change.
Probably built in 1910 +/- a year.
It is almost certainly chambered in 38 Special.

 

[kf4ocv]

It was 5 weeks ago when I found this so I am relying a lot on memory and what I could see by enlarging the pic. This I am sure it was not .38 spl. The owner said it was .38 long colt. The markings on the barrel was like 38 S&W cartridge maybe.

 

[kf4ocv]

Is it worth the price? $265 It locks up tight.

 

[Muley Gil]

Check the serial number underneath the barrel. It should match the number on the butt and on the rear of the cylinder.

"Is it worth the price? $265 It locks up tight."

If the bore isn't pitted too badly, I would say, "Yes".

 

[glowe]

. . . This I am sure it was not .38 spl. The owner said it was .38 long colt. The markings on the barrel was like 38 S&W cartridge maybe.

Smith & Wesson never chambered a revolver is 38 Long Colt. It was always a 38 Special way back to the Model 1899. 38 Long Colt will chamber in a 38 Special S&W revolver, but 38 Special is too long to chamber in a Colt revolver.

 

[Göring's S&W]

This I am sure it was not .38 spl. The owner said it was .38 long colt. The markings on the barrel was like 38 S&W cartridge maybe.

Well this is highly unlikely. I am sure that it is 38 special, if its 38 cal. 38 S&W is out because of the configuration / age of the gun. 38 long Colt is basically out as well, because only the below 1899 US contract guns were in that caliber. Its possible that it was special ordered in 38 long colt, but since 38 special chambers 38 long colt, there would be no reason to order a revolver that way, esp one that isn't a target revolver.

The most likely scenario, BY FAR, is that the shop made a mistake. The roll mark for 38 special was not always simply "38 special" They would add "US Service Cartridge" so people would better know compatibility of the guns and rounds. This would be phased out later.

See below on a 1905 1st change M&P:

FYI - its really rare to find anyone at a gun shop who really knows S&Ws, and even when they do, its rarely the earlier 5 screw guns that they know. Most S&Ws are in S&W calibers, and any S&W in that era that is chambered in a Colt caliber is pretty scarce collectible gun today.

Despite all of this, looking at the photo, the gun to my eye looks like an I frame in 32 long. The trigger guard doesn't look like a K frame shape and the cylinder height looks too short to be a K frame. Also the trigger and hammer look smaller than that of a K frame. Thus, the barrel would be a 4.25 in barrel. With the SN of 167XXX, it would be a model 1903 5th change.

Smith & Wesson never chambered a revolver is 38 Long Colt. It was always a 38 Special way back to the Model 1899.

Gary, never say never with S&W (38 U.S. Service Ctg = 38 long Colt)

 

[linde]

It is a 38 M&P with a 5" barrel and a round butt . . .

Do we know for sure it is a Smith & Wesson . . . and not a Spanish copy?

Here is a 5" square butt "M&P" copy chambered in 38 Long (Colt). Upon closer inspection, it was made in Spain.









Russ

 

[glowe]

Jim, maybe I should have stated that S&W never stamped a revolver 38 Long Colt. There is still a question here? Did S&W ever chamber a gun to handle only 38 LC? I would guess that all were actually chambered so the longer 38 Special would chamber??

To make things more complicated, I have a Model 1899 that is stamped 38 Mil.

 

[Göring's S&W]

Gary - clearly my gun is made only to chamber 38 long colt aka 38 US Service Cartridge. Regardless of how they marked the gun, the caliber is one in the same. You stated that one chambered in 38 long colt didn't exist, so either you didn't know my gun existed, or there is a chance you misspoke, I guess.

 

[kf4ocv]

Thx for the help.Now I will have to go back and look at that gun again. I was already interested but now I got to know more. The owner told me the gun price was cheap because the ammo was expensive and harder to find. It have been .32 long?

 

[merl67]

Not sure I would call $279 cheap on that one just one mans opinion though.

 

[Absalom]

Thx for the help.Now I will have to go back and look at that gun again. I was already interested but now I got to know more. The owner told me the gun price was cheap because the ammo was expensive and harder to find. It have been .32 long?

Now that you say that:

Does anyone see a reason this could not be a Model 1903 in .32? The dimensions are right for a 4.25" barrel, and since there are no size references in the photo, I can't exclude it. The serial would fit also.

PS: I'm feeling frisky, so after comparing some pictures, I'm upping my vote to: I bet that's what it is, 1903, 5th change, from around 1912. See random web photo attached.

PPS: To give credit where credit is due, I just noticed that Jim/Göring's S&W had the same idea earlier. Sorry, missed it because it was in the middle of the M&P discussion.

Other indicators that firm up the diagnosis are the small logo on the left and the location of the stud right above the left stock panel. Both correspond to the Model 1903, not a Model 1902/1905 with that serial.

 

[Hondo44]

I seem to be very late to the party.

Göring's S&W & Absalom, you nailed it. Clearly a 32 HE I frame. The key is the proportion; the cylinder is almost square. 38 K frame cyls are elongated.

The trigger guard proportion to the frame is another giveaway.

Can't be a .38 S&W, it's a six shot cyl on a small frame.

The serial number and barrel length just fall in line after that.

I wish I had a nickel for all the 32 and 38 I frames that have been called 32 or 38 Short Colt, or etc.
32 is often misread as 38 especially on nickel plated guns. CTG is taken to be Colt. Counterintuitive, maybe, I know. But inexperienced observers don't "read" what's there, they just "see" something they know and call it that.

 

[kf4ocv]

That sounds right based on what I remember. I recall the bore was not pitted but the outside is a little rough. The owner offered it to me at $265. Good deal or not so much? Also can it be refinished by S&W or will that kill what value it has?

 

[JSR III]

Get a clear close up photo of the caliber marking, that should help.

 

[Muley Gil]

That sounds right based on what I remember. I recall the bore was not pitted but the outside is a little rough. The owner offered it to me at $265. Good deal or not so much? Also can it be refinished by S&W or will that kill what value it has?

Smith & Wesson doesn't work on anything that old. Shoot, they are turn down guns from the 1960s, so I hear.

 

[handejector]

It is a 38 M&P with a 5" barrel and a round butt.

Despite all of this, looking at the photo, the gun to my eye looks like an I frame in 32 long. The trigger guard doesn't look like a K frame shape and the cylinder height looks too short to be a K frame. Also the trigger and hammer look smaller than that of a K frame. Thus, the barrel would be a 4.25 in barrel. With the SN of 167XXX, it would be a model 1903 5th change.

WOOPS!
I think you nailed it.
So much for the quick glance and relying on the supplied data...........

32........38........what's the difference......

 

[old tanker]

Not always...

Smith & Wesson never chambered a revolver is 38 Long Colt. It was always a 38 Special way back to the Model 1899. 38 Long Colt will chamber in a 38 Special S&W revolver, but 38 Special is too long to chamber in a Colt revolver.

I have military Colt revolvers chambered in the US service cartridge. Their cylinders are bored straight through, that is no step. Not only will they accept a .38 Special cartridge, some .357 magnums will also chamber. (Considerable excitement might ensue from that mistake.)

The Officer's Model, first issue I have, also based on the New Army and Navy revolvers is chambered in .38 Special and has the step.

Since the .38 Colt cartridge was initially outside lubricated, a straight through cylinder makes sense. The Army changed to inside lubricated cartridges and reduced the bore size from .363 to .357 in 1903.

 

[glowe]

. . . Since the .38 Colt cartridge was initially outside lubricated, a straight through cylinder makes sense. The Army changed to inside lubricated cartridges and reduced the bore size from .363 to .357 in 1903.

Thanks for the information about early 38 Long Colts. What does one shoot today in those old bored through revolvers?? What I was trying to say about was that the 38 HE cylinders all had a stepped chamber that would take a 38 Special round, even if they were stamped 38 Mil or 38 US Service Ctge. I have unmolested 38 Mil. guns that 38 Special rounds will drop right in. Colts built after 1903 must have had a stepped chamber as well, so would that era revolver chamber a 38 Special?? The 38 Special brass is .13" longer and what I read is that you cannot chamber 38 Special rounds in a Colt, apparently after 1903??

 

[Absalom]

That sounds right based on what I remember. I recall the bore was not pitted but the outside is a little rough. The owner offered it to me at $265. Good deal or not so much? Also can it be refinished by S&W or will that kill what value it has?

Not only will S&W not refinish it, any refinish by someone who knows what they're doing, together with the $265 would cost you considerably more than just finding a much nicer identical model, all original; there are usually a few on Gunbroker. This was a fairly common model. And while a refinish might make the gun look nice, it would indeed, as you surmised, kill most of the remaining collector value (although that's not very high to begin with, due to its present condition and commonality).

If the stocks are pearl (impossible to tell from picture), they could be worth something, but they wouldn't be original as factory pearls should have S&W medallions.

 

[old tanker]

What does one shoot today in those old bored through revolvers??... The 38 Special brass is .13" longer and what I read is that you cannot chamber 38 Special rounds in a Colt, apparently after 1903??

The 1905 Army manual states that earlier model revolvers undergoing repairs needing a barrel replaced would have the .357 bore version installed. Military armorers did what they needed to do to keep stuff in service and did not much care what problems they might cause collectors with mismatch parts.

Later .38 Long Colt military cartridges used inside lubricated .357" bullets and longer cases. The original 1889 military .38 LC case had a length of 0.87" and an externally-lubricated heeled bullet with a 0.376" diameter. These "Old Style" .38 LC cartridges were not made by Frankford Arsenal after 1897. The "New Style" cartridge was manufactured at Frankford Arsenal starting ca. 1892-93, and had a 1.03" long case and an inside lubricated hollow base .357 lead bullet that expanded upon firing to fill the larger bores of the older Colt revolvers. The last known Frankford Arsenal .38 LC production was in March 1915. There were also .38 LC military cartridges made by commercial contractors, such as Peters, WRA, USCCo, Western, and Remington-UMC. The Army called the .38 LC cartridge simply the ".38 Revolver Ball Cartridge."

Cowboy shooters using .41 Colt have been pretty successful in loading heeled bullet ammo.

Shooting Heel

The Lyman 358160 was the 150 grain heel base bullet intended for the .38 Long Colt. The 358070 was the 150 grain 38 Long Colt Hollow Base mould. They are getting hard to find and expensive when you do.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks for the information about early 38 Long Colts. What does one shoot today in those old bored through revolvers?? What I was trying to say about was that the 38 HE cylinders all had a stepped chamber that would take a 38 Special round, even if they were stamped 38 Mil or 38 US Service Ctge. I have unmolested 38 Mil. guns that 38 Special rounds will drop right in. Colts built after 1903 must have had a stepped chamber as well, so would that era revolver chamber a 38 Special?? The 38 Special brass is .13" longer and what I read is that you cannot chamber 38 Special rounds in a Colt, apparently after 1903??

The 38 Colt cartridge with the inside lubricated bullet uses a hollow base bullet to expand and shoot accurately in the older large bored barrels for the old heeled bullets. It's not so much that the hollow base bullets work, but how well they work!

I have a 1906 Colt SAA; barrel stamped 38 Colt, the cyl chambers have a step, but they do chamber 38 Specials. The Colt books indicate this was fairly standard for all Colt revolvers after the change to the smaller barrel bore dimension for the 38 Colt with the inside lubricated bullet in 1903.