Pocket Carry and 50 yard accuracy possible?

[Bart 44]

Bob Munden can hit a 6" ballon with a j-frame at 200 yards, so why not?

First....Bob is way way above average.

Second....I think most shooters realize Bob didn't necessarily hit the 6 inch balloon but the much bigger steel plate the balloon was on. A hit anywhere on the steel plate will break the balloon. Still an exceptional shot.....

Dennis.

 

[i.hunt]

It's doable with the right gun.... Going back about 10+ years ago I went to an Assault Rifle Instructor School, if you had a malfunction when practicing or qualifying you transitioned to your sidearm, well this day my sidearm was my Glock 27, I didn't know I needed my duty gun (Glock 23) I left it at home in the safe, when not in uniform I always carried my Glock 27, kind of big for pocket gun IMO... well at the 50 yard line shooting my M4 I had a malfunction and needed to fire 2 more rounds, I drew my glock 27 and quickly shot point shoulder two rounds, they landed within an inch apart and touching the top of the Q on the FBI Q target and that is point shoulder!!!!! can a pocket gun do a 4 inch or better group at 50 yards..... absolutely.... if you have the right gun and practice, you must absolutely know your trajectory, where it is hitting, heck we Range guys use to mess around on the rifle range at 100+ yards all the time just for kicks with our little Glock 27's and 23's lol... my current pocket gun is a Ruger LCP that I know CAN NOT do a 4" group at 50 yards and I think it's mainly because of the sights

 

[NFrameFred]

Intrinsic accuracy verses practical accuracy. Too many variables and folks who "just know" staking out their favorite positions pro and con.

As has been said, more often than not the machine is probably up to the task and extremely few shooters can take advantage of it and make it happen. Another huge variable if you're talking "group size" is the ammo chosen. I've seen machine rested guns that would eat out one hole with match ammo that wouldn't hold 3" at 75 feet with crummy ammo.

The bottom line is, how good can you hit from a cold start at that range picking up the gun and shooting one cylinder under practical conditions ? Not "on a good day" or if "everything is perfect" but what is your average using a decent gun and the best ammo you can put in it given the above described scenario ?

One can wax preposterous and ponderously all day long about how many angels can dance on the head of that pin but it's all academic speculation, theoretical probability and bar room BS until the deed is done on the range with live ammo at that distance a sufficient number of times to establish a baseline of practical accuracy for that man, with that gun, with that ammo. And that's all that really counts. The rest is the sound of air moving around . . . .

 

[P95loser]

I would definately say the small groove/ramp sights on a basic j frame wouldn't work...

 

[NFrameFred]

Good answers all. However, if your goal is 50 yard accuracy, I don't understand the pocket-size limitation. Plenty of guns just over this size range that can be easily carried in a holster have greater practical (as opposed to intrinsic or bench rest) accuracy. Holsters don't weigh that much.

As a legal civilian, if I feel like I have to shoot at him that far away with a pocket piece it's to try to keep him ducking for cover while I get to a long gun or can get away . . . . .

 

[A10]

Hi, Rob!

There have been some thoughtful posts on the accuracy issue. I'll share some of my thoughts. Accuracy is different for every individual, you may be able to shoot far more accurately with a revolver than I can, and I may be able to shoot a semiauto more accurately than you. I guess what I'm saying is that what you choose will need to be the right gun for you. Mechanically, most handguns should be able to meet your 8 m.o.a. accuracy expectation given the right ammunition and good quality manufacturing. So, what do you like to shoot, revolvers, semi's, derringers, single shots, etc.? What fits your hand best? What points most naturally for you? Next, what level of recoil are you most comfortable with? Some folks here can shoot a lightweight .44 mag all day long, some are maxing out their recoil tolerance with 9mm or .38(Me, the older I get the less recoil I like on a regular basis). You should also think about what you can afford to shoot A LOT! In order to reach your accuracy potential, you will have to practice A BUNCH! This should also include dry fire to refine your trigger control and sight alignment. Speaking of sights, get something with sights that work for YOU. My eyes are getting old, and I need big, bright shiney things to look at. Your eyesight may be much better, so smaller sights might work. Again, make sure they are right for you.

I guess I'm saying that though there is some good advice here, ya gotta go with what is right for you.

Oh, and there are some 2" target sighted Model 15s out there, that might be my choice given your parameters....

 

[Lobster Picnic]

Model 60-4 is a 3" J-frame with full underlug barrel and adjustable sights. It shoots .38 Special only and has a very tight cylinder window. The target hammer and trigger will help with long shots. The heavy barrel keeps things steady. Weight is 24.5 oz and you'll need a pretty big pocket.

I'm not a great shooter by any stretch, but I have shot a 60-4 at 25 yards and been pleased with the results. The group at that distance was less than 4", shooting offhand in SA.

 

[scooter123]

I would expect that almost any of the current generation of J frames are capable of shooting in the region of 4 inches at 50 yards. Most don't realise it but shorter barrels often prove to be capable of greater mechanical accuracy that longer barrels because the end of the barrel doesn't deflect as far as a longer barrel in response to a bullet transitting the barrel. Bascially, short barrels don't whip around nearly as much as longer barrels and as a result they are often more accurate.

However, the key question is whether the shooter is capable of shooting a 4 inch group at 50 yards. I would suggest that you try doing this and see how well you do. I've done some 50 yard handgun shooting and I don't think you appreciate just how difficult it is.

 

[vipermd]

Rob: You got me thinking. During the 80's I carried a speed six, 2 5/8, 357. I started at 20 feet, then moved my way out. I could ( off a bench, SA, 357 125 gr rem, put 5 of 6 into a 12" square at 100 yd ) I used to do a lot of handgun groundhog hunting, I reloaded, and the gun was accurate. I still have a number of speed sixes and a 3" 36. My eyes are 32 yrs older. I will try the 36 for fun, off a rest, sa. I think the biggest problem will be the right 38 load. I will let you know. Maybe I could ship it to JM in La?? LOL Be Safe,

 

[walkin' trails]

Yes, it is possible with a J-frame and some other pocket-size guns.

Hitting with a two inch J-frame at the 50 is possible, even off-hand. At least with a human torso-sized target. Most of it depends on shooter skills - you must apply all of the fundamentals, especially with the sometimes hard to see sights and short sight radius. Barrel length doesn't mean much out to 50 in my opinion - its all sight picture and trigger control. Of course ammunition does play some part. Use a heavier bullet and remember that the .38 special was designed around a 158 grain lead bullet to be at its best. Factory loaded wadcutters may even have the range and are not likely to drop significantly enough to make a difference. In training, I'd do a lot of dry firing on a small target on the wall so that I could manage the trigger effectively before putting rounds down range from that distance.

I have worked for organizations with handgun qualification courses that went out to 50 yards, and found that the smaller guns weren't any less "real world" accurate at those distances than the full sized guns. Once on a range detail years ago, I occasionally shot at pepper poppers at 100 yards with various toys I carried or drug to the range to play with. I found that I could consistently hit a popper (hit, not knock down) with a Beretta 21A in .22 LR with a 1 1/2 inch barrel and sights worse than any J-frame at that distance.

I've also seen shooters with full sized semi autos with good SA triggers or four inch revolvers again with good SA triggers that wasted a lot of ammo hitting around but not anywhere near a target at 50. Again, its shooter skills brought on by good training. Let us know how it works.

 

[Faulkner]

Though not a revolver and is a tad heavy for a pocket gun, I believe I can do it with my Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP. I shoot 5 inch steel plates at that range all the time, and the fixed barrel blowback PPK/S is very accurate.

I've tried to do the same with my 2 inch J's with not nearly the success as with the PPK/S.

 

[Titegroups]

I shoot bullseye, 50yds at least once a week. New shooters always want to know about accuracy of a particular gun, realize when shooting "you" are by far the weak link. Talking about offhand groups of 4" at 50yds out of a snubbie revolver with full power ammo just shows ignorance as very few can do it.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Bob Munden can hit a 6" ballon with a j-frame at 200 yards, so why not?
Bob Munden -- Impossible 200 Yard Shot - YouTube

Are you Bob Munden? If you answered no.... That is why not!

 

[RobsTV]

Model 60-4 is a 3" J-frame with full underlug barrel and adjustable sights. It shoots .38 Special only and has a very tight cylinder window. The target hammer and trigger will help with long shots. The heavy barrel keeps things steady. Weight is 24.5 oz and you'll need a pretty big pocket.

I'm not a great shooter by any stretch, but I have shot a 60-4 at 25 yards and been pleased with the results. The group at that distance was less than 4", shooting offhand in SA.

That is along the lines of what I was thinking.
Weighs almost the same as current pocket carry, and only 1.2" longer.
Already cast and reload my own 158gr's, so that helps too.
I'll read more reviews and check one out to see if it fits my pocket good enough.

Thanks for all the replies.

Another couple answers that might explain why.

When drag racing, I built the car for the 1/4 mile, even though it would be raced in the 1/8th mile 95% of the time. But if it can hold up to 1/4 mile work, 1/8 mile work will be a breeze.

What if you want a motorcycle that handles the twisties close to any good crotch rocket? But you also want a long distance road touring motorcycle, that has every day repeatable 600 mile riding comfort for two, 300 mile range per tank, along with plenty of storage for two people to frequently ride across the country. Also, 45mpg, and 135+ mph just so it won't struggle at 90mph? The answer I have is a Honda ST1100. Does all this and more. So, many times it is possible to mix two things that seem totally opposite of what each was designed for.

No, I do not expect this to pocket carry as well as a dedicated tiny pocket carry gun would. No, I do not expect it to be as easy to hit 4" groups at 50 yards like a longer sight radius handgun would. And like the drag racing car, having 4" at 50 yards accuracy does not mean that is what you must do. It only means that when used at 25 yards, it will be much easier and a better 25 yards choice. But yes, it will be used occasionally at 50 yards, and I will most likely not be able to get 4" groups at 50 yards. If I had a pocket carry sized handgun that could get 4" groups at 50 yards, I would shoot it occasionally at 100 yards as well.

If I asked what is the best 25 yard gun, the answers would be a lot different, since 25 yards is much easier to achieve. That would be lowering the standard.

(edited too late for following post about pocket carry)
Pocket carry falls into same thing, raise the bar, then it will work better when bar is lowered.
While I am looking for a size that I can pocket carry, I might end up normally using an IWB. But, there will still be many times when pocket carry will work best for me, so it must be able to be used in that manor. I guess the better pocket fit, the more it will be used for pocket carry, and the worst pocket fit (yet still must fit), the least it would be used for pocket carry.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Also, for self defense, (or even to protect others), it would be better to know that you do not need to wait for an armed assailant to get closer to you than 7 yards before you can have any thoughts of taking them out. Perhaps he has an a weapon that is accurate at 50 yards? Don't think there is anything wrong with carrying a better more accurate weapon than will probably ever be needed.

Of course not, if it doesn't cost you in other important ways. However, thinking that you will ever use it is another thing entirely. Only a terrorist with a rifle is going to be 50 yards away and threatening you. And you might be able to nail him even with a gun that can't quite make 4" at that distance. Do you realize how tight a spec that is? You might want to re-read what NFrameFred said.

Your question is not so much about guns as it is about pockets. What fits in YOUR pocket? A Colt Commander (now called Lightweight Commander)? That could easily qualify, with a fitted bushing. A 2" Model 15 might be close, and it does fit in MY pocket, even though people who haven't seen me have told me that it doesn't conceal well on my belt because it has a square butt. Certainly a 2.5" M19 might be competitive, but I doubt that I would carry one in my pocket.

Your pockets, your pants, your choice.

 

[hudsonvalley]

Are you thinking self preservation or for the range? I ask because if I ever had a situation that might result in a gun being drawn...and there was 50 yards between me and the idiot...then I would work diligently to make it 100 yds distance...and then 200 yds....distance is your friend, pocket carry is for up close and personal...J-frame in 38, point and pull the trigger as many times as need be...maybe what a lot of us on gun forums forget is that moist of us are not LEO's...personal defense is a thought process...don't put yourself, if possible, in situations that may result in a gun being drawn or fired...avoidance, awareness of your surroundings and just some plain common sense. That puppy in your pocket is meant for that one unexpected moment that no one here, LE included I'm sure, never wan to happen but we're prepared in the event of...

 

[gdauth]

I tried my friend's Model 13 (which led me to buy one) and i was able to consistently hit a clay pigeon @ 50 yards but im not sure it would fit in a pocket

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

You need deep pockets!

 

[Invictus357]

Hickok45 can do wonders with a J frame.

Rings the gong at 80 yards.

642 S&W .38 Special (Airweight J frame) - YouTube

 

[M3Stuart]

Possible, but highly unlikely.

 

[Badkarma 1]

I have a model 60 no dash and spent a lot if time practicing with it a few years ago. Got to the point where I could make it very unhealthy fir a humanoid target at 100yds. Load was standard 158gr SWC and yes I practiced almost everyday!
50yds with a snubby is possible, as long as the shooter PRACTICES! Dale

 

[MP22]

Darn near impossible with a pocket gun. I would have to be standing there watching to believe it.

 

[TAROMAN]

I was once detailed as range officer for M16 familiarization back in the 1970s at Ft. Huachuca.
Brought along my Model 60 to deal with any rattlesnakes that might have taken up residence in the concrete culvert firing line foxholes.
The morning shift had departed and the afternoon crew were an hour away.
So, I tried out the 60 on the reactive targets. These flop down when hit. The 75 yard target shows only the head and top of the shoulders.
After a couple ranging shots, I was able to hit this with every shot (maybe a dozen) from the limited supply in my ammo wallet.
This was shooting braced on sandbags, of course.
A good example of INHERENT as opposed to PRACTICAL accuracy.

 

[chief38]

I can consistently keep 5 shots from my 2" M60-7 in the black (2 1/2" - 3" group) at 50 FEET and would think that the same gun is capable of doing a 4" group at 50 Yards, although I probably could not. I have never tried, but I would bet the gun is capable.

Chief38

 

[SuperMan]

As has been said, the mechanical accuracy of most firearms, even snubbies will make the 8 moa criteria, the problem is 95% of the shooters in this world can not take advantage of it.

Shootability is a second factor. Put a glass smooth trigger pull on a gun and it makes hitting at any distance easier than one with a 10# gritty pull. The small stocks that came standard on Smiths for many years fit in a pocket fine but are hard for most to shoot accurately with. Put a set of larger rubber grips on and the Shootability goes up but the concealability down....

I have a little bit different standard for my defensive and hunting shooting...and that is the simple 9" paper plate or the standard piece of 8.5x11" piece of typing paper. My goal whether it be a pocket gun or a .338 Lapua sniper rifle is to keep all shots on target under realistic field conditions.

Besides the already mention 60-10 and 60-4 with the 3" fullunderlug barrel and target sights, there was also a 60-1 Target with 2" barrel and target sights. They were contracted by Ashland Shooting Supply many years ago and make the true 2" snubbie as "shootable" as it gets...

Here is a pic of the three...

Bob

 

[adowns]

Popeye Doyle could do it!

 

[DGNY]

I would second the motion regarding a S&W Model 60-4 [.38 Special]. Mine has not been to the bench yet. But trying 15 yds offhand with mine makes me think your 50 yd goal would be attainable off sandbag with loads it liked.

Also would consider the Model 15 2", mentioned above, as a fruitful possibility, tho not petite. Mine are 4"-ers, but if the 2"s are similar..... 4" groups at 50 yds - no sweat.

Keep us in the loop.

Regards,

Dyson

 

[5-Shot]

Does this count? Fired it this afternoon using old CCI standard velocity ammo. The follow up group was a little bigger. A composite 10-shot group would have been under 5.5 inches.

Ed