polysterene filler

[Qc Pistolero]

I use toilet paper as a filler in my straight wall cases(38-55 and 45-70)to good effect.They replace gas check in a satisfactory way(here again experimentation pays).I was wondering...those polysterene trays they use to pack almost everything in(mostly meat),if grounded in a paper shredder,would it be a usefull filler?Anybody has ever tried it?
Qc

 

[rockquarry]

It might work, but that sounds like a lot of trouble. Others use Dacron fiber, I think.

I'm not knocking those who use fillers, but a suitable powder will usually negate the need for a filler. I've used a variety of powders in straight wall cases with cast bullets and no fillers. Once a load has been fine-tuned, ignition and accuracy have always been good.

 

[ggibson511960]

Melting Point Problems

I would be wary of any polystyrene filler/buffer. The range of formulations of polymers is vast and somewhat unpredictable. Any polymer getting rammed down a barrel by incandescent gas has the potential to either burn or melt. Burning can cause residue problems, and melted leftovers in the bore present obvious problems. Shotgun wads are polyethylene formulations, generally more resistant to burning, vaporizing, melting or otherwise causing trouble, but they still can leave melt deposits in a bore if not cleaned. Ethylene or styrene polymers are generally not soluble in the solvent that work for powder like Hoppes No. 9. I've never used it, but I read all the time about corn meal used as a filler. Makes sense as the cellulose (nature's polymer) lights off and burns more readily than manmade stuff without melting.

 

[arjay]

Are you getting more consistent results that way?
What about cutting over powder wads from poly?

 

[MichiganScott]

There was an article years ago in a Handloader's Digest where the author used a circle of polystyrene cut from meat trays as an ablative "gas check". He found the polystyrene to be just as effective as a regular gas check.

If you simply want a filler, polyester fiberfill used in quilting or pillow manufacturer works well. All you need is a small pinch. Ground polyethylene beads trade marked as Grex by Winchester also work well, but you have to use enough so the bullet contacts the filler so it doesn't mix with the powder. I doubt polystyrene run through a paper shredder would be satisfactory.

 

[max]

YEARS AGO, I read an article in G&A or ST's where checks were made from these trays. The author used a sharpened case to cut out the material. He reported that it worked just fine.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Are you getting more consistent results that way?
What about cutting over powder wads from poly?

I've tried that before and it works.I was just wondering if it was less trouble filling the case with shredded polystyrene.Guess from all the answers that this is not the greatest idea of 21st century I had there!
Thanks for all the answers
Qc

 

[Alk8944]

...those polysterene trays they use to pack almost everything in(mostly meat),if grounded in a paper shredder,would it be a usefull filler?Anybody has ever tried it?
Qc

What you refer to is Polyethylene foam, not Polystyrene. Yes, it has been tried. As a matter of fact shredded poly foam is available commercially as a cartridge filler under more than one brand name. This is not a new idea.

Cream of Wheat cereal and corn meal both work well too, and are cheap! Just don't use corn meal in bottle-necked cartridges unless you are fire-forming to expand the case neck to a larger caliber.** Please believe this! I came very close to destroying a Model 71-84 Mauser many years ago by using corn meal as a filler.

** I have, as an extreme case, fire-formed 7mm Rem Mag cases to .458 Winchester Magnum using corn meal, and had very low losses due to split necks! If you believe most people on the forum they will insist this cannot be done without 100% case loss from split necks! Well it simply isn't true! Why? I needed .458 Winchester brass and had lots of pick-up 7mm Rem Mag cases, (free!). All I would be out is a primer, some Unique and cheap corn meal if it didn't work!

 

[sw282]

l use a filler in my SW460 loads.. l started using it after experiencing

the pains from cleaning the cyl after shooting 45Colt loads...

l simply wanted practice loads LESS than full bore 460S&W Magnums..

By using 45Colt data and a card wad over the powder l enjoy EASY

plinking without a major cleaning headache... 900fps is GREAT practice

 

[Nemo288]

I know this is an older thread but as a sometime filler user I just have to butt in.
A couple of the posts above refer to an overPOWDER wad.
Please don't do this if there is any air between the wad/check and the bullet.
It is a poorly documented but widely believed phenomena among the double rifle crowd
that ramming anything up into the mounted bullet under fire is asking for a ringed chamber.
I have ringed brass right at the base of the bullet doing this and immediately gave up.
Card or other wads that do not fill up ALL the airspace must be touching the bullet.
If you are not having any problems: great!
It's true the X-Frame is more than likely made of better steel than a vintage double, but please be vigilant.
My double is not vintage, made of modern steel, but I still won't be loading any more of those over powder wads.

That's where the fluffy buffers come in.
Grex has worked great for me and still does.
I thought it was polycarbonate but looked into it and see that it is indeed polyethylene.
http://winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/SDS/CARTRIDGES%20-%20SHOTSHELL.pdf
I got several bottles when I thought I was going to be making a bunch of high performance pheasant loads.
That didn't happen to the degree I had planned so I started experimenting with it in 44 target loads.
Unlike some buffers, it seems to just simply disappear.
The BPI buffer should perform the same.
BPI Original Design Buffer (500cc)-ballisticproducts.com
I don't know if it coats the barrel or not.
Pufflon does.
Pufflon: Ingredients and Ballistics
It is VERY finely ground (think dust) and contains Moly.
This affects following shots even if they are not buffered.
I gave up on it mostly because of the mess dealing with the fine powder and I am not a big Moly fan.
Styrofoam may not be the best material for a buffer with it's low melting point.
Getting the exact same amount in each case might be a problem for the OP using his home made method.
Guess no one is gonna really know until they try it!
I have used TP and it leaves an unholy mess of shredded paper out in front of you.
Indoor range owners are not going to be pleased.
Don't ask how I know this!

So for case fillers:
a) Try for the least mass. Every grain you add inside the case affects the final pressure and ballistics.
b) Fill up all the airspace plus some. You want some compression to hold the powder down and minimize mixing with the filler.

The double rifle folks who use fillers in those huge cases with modern powders usually go with dacron batting or foam plugs.
Foam plugs are used by Kynoch in all their Nitro-For-Black loads and several regular double rifle offerings.
Those wads are available here at the bottom of the page:
Trader Keith

A load I use in my B. Rizzini BR-550E 444 Marlin double rifle (and the Marlin 444S) is:
24 grains 2400, 13.5 grains SuperGrex, Sierra 240 JHC, any 444 brass, WLR.
This blows the case out well enough to provide a solid seal giving nice clean brass and 44 magnum carbine ballistics.

The lowest power yet accurate 44 load I ever developed is:
4.5 grains PB, 10 grains Grex, 240 SWC sized correctly, W-W 44 special brass, WLP

Other substances I have used without apparent pressure problems are used tumbling media.
The cobs are lighter and as such preferred over the walnut.
The walnut I am convinced if used regularly will polish your barrel!
You certainly won't have to clean it.
Might actually be too much of a good thing.
The smell is also different than anything else you might encounter at the gun range.
Think rock festival.

 

[hdwhit]

Qc Pistolero wrote:
I use toilet paper as a filler in my straight wall cases ... polysterene trays ... if grounded in a paper shredder,would it be a usefull filler?Anybody has ever tried it?

I have not tried it.

I would be reluctant to do so.

Toilet paper is cellulose; highly processed to separate the fibers which are then laid up again as a non-woven fabric. As a result, it readily combusts with a modest ash fraction and anything that doesn't combust is readily ejected from the barrel.

Polystyrene trays are a closed cell form form of the plastic. To completely combust, it must have high temperatures in the presence of air. As large quantities of air are not present in a gun barrel, the combustion will be incompete leaving behind an ash fraction consisting of various hydrocarbons.

Since toilet paper is working well for you, is readily available, is inexpensive and the alternatives offer no significant advantage, why change?

 

[rockquarry]

Is Grex still recommended for cast bullet loads? There was occasionally some mention of it twenty or so years ago, but I don't recall seeing anything recently. I tried it some time ago but really didn't give it a fair workout. My results were better without it.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The only "Good use" of the meat tray in reloading for me has been..............

in the reloading of shotgun shells.

Just that it is a real pain to find an instrument that will cut out the correct dia. that you need, without damage to the material.

No way was I going the knife or scissors routine.

 

[Nemo288]

Is Grex still recommended for cast bullet loads? There was occasionally some mention of it twenty or so years ago, but I don't recall seeing anything recently. I tried it some time ago but really didn't give it a fair workout. My results were better without it.

Grex (or SuperGrex as it was branded) is a moot issue these days as it has not been made for many years.
During my research I found out Olin has even let the trademark lapse.
SUPER GREX Trademark of Olin Corporation. Serial Number: 73595291 :: Trademarkia Trademarks
The BPI buffer should perform the same function.
I only consider using a filler if 50% or more of the case is air.
It usually helps with SD if nothing else especially with some of the powders notorious for position sensitivity.

Toilet paper is cellulose; highly processed to separate the fibers which are then laid up again as a non-woven fabric. As a result, it readily combusts with a modest ash fraction and anything that doesn't combust is readily ejected from the barrel.

When I used TP I found the ejected shreds had NO sign of burning whatsoever.
The time spent in the barrel is so short that getting anything to actually burn is a tough proposition.
Maybe a rifle would be different.
The very finely powdered plastics may melt some but I would bet if any burning took place with them it would be after leaving the barrel.
Your notice of the lack of oxygen is a good one too.
Some powders produce a big muzzle flash.
Those are the hot gases that could not burn completely inside the barrel and waited for the oxygen in the air to do so.

 

[Nemo288]

Just that it is a real pain to find an instrument that will cut out the correct dia. that you need, without damage to the material.

I have found that a 7/16" arch punch makes nice wads for the 44.
Look around for those, gasket punches, or wad punches.
The ones that mount on your press are usually way more expensive than the cheaper hammer punches.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies/wad-punches
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/pdf_datasheet.php?products_id=7735

 

[rockquarry]

I guess we're talking primarily of cast bullet use here. Just as something to consider, we often make more work than necessary in achieving a goal.

Years back, I did some cast bullet experimentation using grease wads, both the commercial variety and home-made using a Cabine Tree extruder pump. While I actually had some success, I proved to myself that a bullet of the proper alloy and fit negated the need for grease wads altogether.

My work with fillers has been more limited and I haven't used them in a long time, but it seems fillers are similar to grease wads as far as their degree of usefulness goes. They work and may work very well, but using the right powder with a fitted bullet of proper alloy will negate the need for a filler.

These are generalized comments. We all know there are exceptions, always.

 

[rwsmith]

Dacron Pillow filler.....

This works extremely well and a bag of it goes a LONG way. I used it for reduced loads on the old Speer recommendation, but I think with the right powders, it isn't really needed.

And today Speer is adamantly against using fillers, which I personally think is CYA Bull. If you don't use too much, it just DISAPPEARS. Maybe it adds a little ash but only a little.

Toilet paper works, if it is all consumed. I saw some guys with a black powder muzzle loader that they said they could fire all day for a few dollars because all they used was TP for wadding.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

This works extremely well and a bag of it goes a LONG way. I used it for reduced loads on the old Speer recommendation, but I think with the right powders, it isn't really needed.

And today Speer is adamantly against using fillers, which I personally think is CYA Bull. If you don't use too much, it just DISAPPEARS. Maybe it adds a little ash but only a little.

Toilet paper works, if it is all consumed. I saw some guys with a black powder muzzle loader that they said they could fire all day for a few dollars because all they used was TP for wadding.

RWS,I've retained your answer but I could've retained a lot of others that are going the same way.Here's my thinking about why I'm doing it this way;
A few years ago,I read ''my 40 years with the 45-70'' from Paul Mathews.The gentleman knows his stuff and the book is very interesting to read.I remember one place where he mentionned that he didn't lube his cast bullet but just used a ''blob''of grease under it.He said that,if fired immediatly(so that the soft grease would not migrate into the powder and hamper ignition partly or completely),he would not have a single trace of leading.
Starting from there(and since more often than not I don't shoot my reloads right away),I concluded that for hot loads,some bullets would not have enough grease in its groove(s) to do the complete job(that is up to the muzzle)and if I added some insulation,it might help by giving a longer life to the grease in the lube groove(s).
Since after my first tests I found that the time exposure is short enough so that the TP won't ignite,thus doing its job of protecting the bullet base + the fact that if I packed the TP in the available space between bullet and powder so as to use all the space,the thing might act just like the wads (the collapsing one type)in a shotgun.
And like I said,the groups in both my 45-70s and one of my friend's are as good as or better than those with Hornady gas checks.
Since I've never heard of a shotgun with a ringed barrel(exept if there was an obstruction in the barrel)I figure that if the TP is filling the space there shouldn't be any problem.I was just wondering if grounded polysterene would act the same way compressionwise(insulation we know since its flash point is higher than TP).
I've shot a few thousands rds in both a Ruger no 1 and a Pedersoli Billy Dixon Sharps and without a problem exept I'm still looking for these sub 1'' group!I'll keep working on it!
Qc