3rdgeargrndrr
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Nice group. Single action slow fire I presume
Poor accuracy with Model 638
- Thread starter mauiblue
- Start date
Kernel Crittenden
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
I never thought you should adopt one on a permanent basis. But for a temporary measure it can help you validate the mechanical accuracy of the revolver. That's all. You don't have to keep it.
Thanks for all the interest and posts.
I've put approximately 5k rounds though the gun since ownership. Majority of the ammo is American Eagle which I used with my S&W Model 686 Plus 4". I'm very accurate and consistent with my Model 686 Plus by the way. I've had several range buddies shoot the Model 638 recently and they basically have the same results as me. One of my buddies is a state sheriff and a shooting instructor. The other buddy is a gun collector of antique military firearms and owns (and shoots) several Colt small frame revolvers. BTW the gun has Karl Nill walnut grips (3 finger grip) and I did install a Apex revolver kit years ago.
From a target distance of 7 to 10 yards the POI is about 8 to 10 inches off to the lower right from the POA. This results are consistent when I would shoot it SA off sand bags. I do shoot the gun off hand and again have the same results. I'm good with the recoil and in fact the recoil with +P ammo is fine with me as I've put several hundred rounds through the gun on several range outings. I've shot the gun to compensate for the POA/POI discrepancy and it is frustrating to always try to get it spot on by compensating for the error. It would be nice to have the gun hit where you point it to without having that much error. I don't expect the gun to be as accurate as my S&W Model 41 or my tuned Ruger Mark III Hunter 6.88" fluted barrel pistol. What I do expect is that I don't have to guess where I need to point the gun to hit my target.
I've asked this question about shooting accurately with a J frame on this forum when I first bought the gun about four years ago. I've had basically the same feedback as before - that I should practice, do dry fire drills, have other shooters try the gun to see if the results are the same. I figured I keep on practicing and honing my skills all this time because this was a new firearm platform for me. But after four years and having a few friends that are adept in shooting in all platforms mimic the same results I've been having I decided to send the gun in which S&W was gracious to accept for inspection. I've surely put as much effort in developing my abilities in shooting this J frame as with my other firearms (handguns and long guns) and feel I've invested enough time and money (ammo) to finally throw in the towel and seek another resolution to this issue. Let me say sending in the gun to S&W was the last action I wanted to do as I am concerned about sending the gun off from Maui to the east coast and having it arrive back to Maui.
Aloha to all that have contributed to this thread. I'll let you guys know how things work out when I get the gun back.
I've put approximately 5k rounds though the gun since ownership. Majority of the ammo is American Eagle which I used with my S&W Model 686 Plus 4". I'm very accurate and consistent with my Model 686 Plus by the way. I've had several range buddies shoot the Model 638 recently and they basically have the same results as me. One of my buddies is a state sheriff and a shooting instructor. The other buddy is a gun collector of antique military firearms and owns (and shoots) several Colt small frame revolvers. BTW the gun has Karl Nill walnut grips (3 finger grip) and I did install a Apex revolver kit years ago.
From a target distance of 7 to 10 yards the POI is about 8 to 10 inches off to the lower right from the POA. This results are consistent when I would shoot it SA off sand bags. I do shoot the gun off hand and again have the same results. I'm good with the recoil and in fact the recoil with +P ammo is fine with me as I've put several hundred rounds through the gun on several range outings. I've shot the gun to compensate for the POA/POI discrepancy and it is frustrating to always try to get it spot on by compensating for the error. It would be nice to have the gun hit where you point it to without having that much error. I don't expect the gun to be as accurate as my S&W Model 41 or my tuned Ruger Mark III Hunter 6.88" fluted barrel pistol. What I do expect is that I don't have to guess where I need to point the gun to hit my target.
I've asked this question about shooting accurately with a J frame on this forum when I first bought the gun about four years ago. I've had basically the same feedback as before - that I should practice, do dry fire drills, have other shooters try the gun to see if the results are the same. I figured I keep on practicing and honing my skills all this time because this was a new firearm platform for me. But after four years and having a few friends that are adept in shooting in all platforms mimic the same results I've been having I decided to send the gun in which S&W was gracious to accept for inspection. I've surely put as much effort in developing my abilities in shooting this J frame as with my other firearms (handguns and long guns) and feel I've invested enough time and money (ammo) to finally throw in the towel and seek another resolution to this issue. Let me say sending in the gun to S&W was the last action I wanted to do as I am concerned about sending the gun off from Maui to the east coast and having it arrive back to Maui.
Aloha to all that have contributed to this thread. I'll let you guys know how things work out when I get the gun back.
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You have definite justification to send it back to S & W. Not to mention you are a highly patient man to have waited 5000 rounds before doing so 
.
Please do let us know what the factory says, but it sounds as though it will take major work/parts replacement, or a new gun, to fix it.
.Please do let us know what the factory says, but it sounds as though it will take major work/parts replacement, or a new gun, to fix it.
It takes practice for sure. This is at 7 yards, I am no bullseye shooter. The DA string is not slow fire, no staging.
It's taken me a while to get this down to under 6" as I tend to wiggle a lot. The key for me was go get a steel J.
The 638 May be one of me next purchases.
It's taken me a while to get this down to under 6" as I tend to wiggle a lot. The key for me was go get a steel J.
The 638 May be one of me next purchases.
mauiblue,
I can't know for sure if the gun has a problem or not. But based on my experience with the same issues you have, I'm guessing it's not the gun.
I got nowhere the first four months. Then I switched to only shooting the 637-2. That forced me to work on the issue at hand. After 4 months, I was very comfortable at 15 yards.
I don't know if you want to put that much into it or not. But I'm kind of stubborn and didn't want to let that little gun beat me.
The most helpful thing I learned was the airweights need a FIRM hand to control them. I squeeze untill my hands shake, then back off till they just stop shaking. That holds the gun where I point it, and doesn't let it jump around after I pull the trigger.
A trigger job will also help, it doesn't take much jerk to get these things off target.
Was it worth it? Well, after I started shooting my other guns, I found that I shot them MUCH better. The manager at the range told me "learn to shoot a lightweight snubbie revolver, and you can shoot anything".
Good luck, whatever your decision.
I can't know for sure if the gun has a problem or not. But based on my experience with the same issues you have, I'm guessing it's not the gun.
I got nowhere the first four months. Then I switched to only shooting the 637-2. That forced me to work on the issue at hand. After 4 months, I was very comfortable at 15 yards.
I don't know if you want to put that much into it or not. But I'm kind of stubborn and didn't want to let that little gun beat me.
The most helpful thing I learned was the airweights need a FIRM hand to control them. I squeeze untill my hands shake, then back off till they just stop shaking. That holds the gun where I point it, and doesn't let it jump around after I pull the trigger.
A trigger job will also help, it doesn't take much jerk to get these things off target.
Was it worth it? Well, after I started shooting my other guns, I found that I shot them MUCH better. The manager at the range told me "learn to shoot a lightweight snubbie revolver, and you can shoot anything".
Good luck, whatever your decision.
RGVshooter
Member
I've been shooting revolvers for the past 26 years and I'm telling you that almost every time I've had a gun or someone else had a gun that was "inaccurate", it was 99% of the time it was the shooter and not the gun. Having a more experienced shooter shoot the pistol is an excellent suggestion.
For example. I had recently sent out my M&P 9mm to S&W for their "M&P action package". After twiddling my thumbs for nearly 4 months I got my pistol back. Boy did they do a nice job! The trigger feels schweeet. However most of my shots were all going left, like 6" left at ranges around 7-15 yards. ( I use the pistol for USPSA) It was getting very frustrating.
I handed the pistol to one of my friends who is a USPSA grand master and at 20 yards he put the first 3 shots in a 1.5" group and handed the gun back to me and told me to keep practicing... You see, when S&W did the trigger work it changed how the trigger felt and I had to "relearn" how to shoot it.
I carry a 642 as my EDC. With it's heavy double action only trigger and a barrel length that can be measured in millimeters, it's a miracle if I can hit a 8" paper plate at 10 yards. bringing it up to 3 yards would be better, but that would defeat the purpose of training with it...
In short what i am saying is, I'm 99% sure the OP's 638 is perfectly fine. On revolvers your trigger finger should be on the first joint of the finger or more. you want to pull the trigger straight back, not in quick jerks but squeeze the trigger slowly back. with it's short barrel any tiny variations or even the most minute flinch will be more amplified than a longer barrel. Now if the OP already sent the revolver back to S&W then may I suggest that when you get the quote in the mail (after about 3-4 weeks) that you also ask them to smooth out the action.
For example. I had recently sent out my M&P 9mm to S&W for their "M&P action package". After twiddling my thumbs for nearly 4 months I got my pistol back. Boy did they do a nice job! The trigger feels schweeet. However most of my shots were all going left, like 6" left at ranges around 7-15 yards. ( I use the pistol for USPSA) It was getting very frustrating.
I handed the pistol to one of my friends who is a USPSA grand master and at 20 yards he put the first 3 shots in a 1.5" group and handed the gun back to me and told me to keep practicing... You see, when S&W did the trigger work it changed how the trigger felt and I had to "relearn" how to shoot it.
I carry a 642 as my EDC. With it's heavy double action only trigger and a barrel length that can be measured in millimeters, it's a miracle if I can hit a 8" paper plate at 10 yards. bringing it up to 3 yards would be better, but that would defeat the purpose of training with it...
In short what i am saying is, I'm 99% sure the OP's 638 is perfectly fine. On revolvers your trigger finger should be on the first joint of the finger or more. you want to pull the trigger straight back, not in quick jerks but squeeze the trigger slowly back. with it's short barrel any tiny variations or even the most minute flinch will be more amplified than a longer barrel. Now if the OP already sent the revolver back to S&W then may I suggest that when you get the quote in the mail (after about 3-4 weeks) that you also ask them to smooth out the action.
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max503
Member
Yes. Single action, slow fire. With this load the sights line up with the point of impact.
If I get really, really picky, there isn't perfect alignment between the barrel and the frame. I still think they tweak the barrel-frame alignment at the factory in order to bring the shots to center. I'm just glad it shoots to where it's aimed.
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A comment on those that mentioned that it is the shooter and not the gun:
When would a person would finally say enough is enough and look for another resolution to the inaccuracies? I mean I've put though the gun thousands of rounds, I've practiced several times a year with it, I've let other people that are experienced in shooting small revolvers run the gun and it still resulted in substandard accuracy at a short distance (7 to 10 yards measured).
I am hoping if there is an issue with the gun mechanically, S&W will resolve it. When I get it back and I still have problems with accuracy then I'll have to decide at that point if I want to keep on going down the road of practicing and burning up more ammo and range time to finally get to nirvana or just sell the gun and find something I can shoot accurately and confidently.
I gave myself a long period (4 years) and expense (5K rounds) to get to where I felt I should be with the revolver. None of the other firearm platforms I owned I've had to put so much investment into to get the comfort and skill level I wanted.
A person got to know their limitations and now I leave it to S&W to see if there is an issue with the gun and I'll go from there.
Aloha for the members consideration and patience.
When would a person would finally say enough is enough and look for another resolution to the inaccuracies? I mean I've put though the gun thousands of rounds, I've practiced several times a year with it, I've let other people that are experienced in shooting small revolvers run the gun and it still resulted in substandard accuracy at a short distance (7 to 10 yards measured).
I am hoping if there is an issue with the gun mechanically, S&W will resolve it. When I get it back and I still have problems with accuracy then I'll have to decide at that point if I want to keep on going down the road of practicing and burning up more ammo and range time to finally get to nirvana or just sell the gun and find something I can shoot accurately and confidently.
I gave myself a long period (4 years) and expense (5K rounds) to get to where I felt I should be with the revolver. None of the other firearm platforms I owned I've had to put so much investment into to get the comfort and skill level I wanted.
A person got to know their limitations and now I leave it to S&W to see if there is an issue with the gun and I'll go from there.
Aloha for the members consideration and patience.
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kbm6893
Member
I had a post a few months back about really sucking with J frames. I've had a 36, a 642, and then a old model 60. I sucked with them all. I got a 640 for the heck of it and for some reason I shoot better with it. It's not the grips since the 60 wore the grips the 640 now wears. I don't know why.
5000 rounds is a lot. A j frame is a 50 round at a time gun to shoot. They're not all that pleasurable to shoot so practice isn't easy. I doubt there's anything wrong with the gun.
But the advice I got here made sense. If you can hit a paper plate at 10-15 feet, that's all you need in the snubbie. Sure, they're capable of better accuracy but it takes a long time and plenty of ammo. If that's not enough for you than sell it and move on. I am much more accurate with a small semi auto than a j frame.
5000 rounds is a lot. A j frame is a 50 round at a time gun to shoot. They're not all that pleasurable to shoot so practice isn't easy. I doubt there's anything wrong with the gun.
But the advice I got here made sense. If you can hit a paper plate at 10-15 feet, that's all you need in the snubbie. Sure, they're capable of better accuracy but it takes a long time and plenty of ammo. If that's not enough for you than sell it and move on. I am much more accurate with a small semi auto than a j frame.
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Zombie John
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I have a problem with the whole "99% of the time, it's the shooter and not the gun" mantra.
I've got a 500 Magnum right now sitting at S&W in MA because it's out of time with only 120-160 rounds through it. I had a Mossberg shotgun that wouldn't load a shell right out of the box -- and had a bent barrel, to boot. I've had two revolvers with canted barrels (Taurus and Ruger).
Sig put out a gun recently that fired when you dropped it. Taurus made one recently that fired when you SHOOK it!
As for inaccuracy... Sometimes it's you, sometimes it's the gun and sometimes it's just a combo of the two. Gun might be fine but for some reason you just don't shoot it well (maybe the grip, the sights, etc.)
All I know is that sometimes I buy a gun that shoots awesome for me right out the box -- and those are the ones I keep. Other times, they don't shoot so well right out the box. For those, I give them some time and try different things, but eventually, you have to think about it like this: There's too many guns out there that could be shooting great for you right out of the box for you to give too much time to a gun that's just not working for some reason.
I had a Weatherby 300 Wby Magnum that sometimes could hold a pattern, sometimes couldn't. When it DID pattern, there was never any telling where the pattern was going to be. I bought at least three scopes, thinking the recoil was throwing it off. I tried different ammo. I shot it hot and I shot it cold. I sent it off to Weatherby twice. The first time, they sent it back with a spent shell casing and no paperwork to let me know their findings. The second time, they fixed a "bedding issue." The gun never worked for me and after three years and over $1000 in ammo and scopes, I traded it even for a Handi-rifle that worked just fine out of the box. While the Weatherby was back at the mothership, I got a $250 Model 70 from Wal-Mart just to tide me over for deer season. That .30-06 is currently the best deer rifle I've ever owned. Shoots MOA or better with a cheap Simmons scope that came with it.
I also had a Ruger Super Redhawk. I did the same thing with it. Try this. Try that. Git gud. I spent God knows how much money on ammo trying to practice with that thing. I eventually sold it and got a cheap Taurus M44. Shot like a dream.
I think after 4 years, you've given the gun more than enough time to impress you. Be ware, Smith and Wesson may send it back saying it meets their quality standards. If they do, then you'll have no reason not to trade it or sell it and get something that DOES work for you right out the box.
Like I said, sometimes it's you, sometimes it's the gun and sometimes it's both. Take some time to try and figure it out, but after a while, you have to accept that you're just wasting your own time and money when you could have something better.
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1. Paint the front sight with either white, red, bright orange, yellow or any color the shows up on the target (depending on the color of the target.)
2. use a grip adapter or larger grip instead of the magna grips.
3. use the tip of your trigger finger instead of the first joint
4. use 148gr wadcutters or 158gr LRN standard velocity ammo
5. start at shooting at 3 yards, then 7 yards, and then 15 yards.
6. all the above should not be attempted until the action of your revolver is smooth.
*** I have a Model 649 that will print3 to 4 inches left at 15 yards
2. use a grip adapter or larger grip instead of the magna grips.
3. use the tip of your trigger finger instead of the first joint
4. use 148gr wadcutters or 158gr LRN standard velocity ammo
5. start at shooting at 3 yards, then 7 yards, and then 15 yards.
6. all the above should not be attempted until the action of your revolver is smooth.
*** I have a Model 649 that will print3 to 4 inches left at 15 yards
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ABPOS
Member
Personally I think you did plenty of due diligence.
Did you ever get a chance to shoot someone else's J frame? I would think renting one or trying someone elses that was a known shooter would let you know if it's you or not.
But it's true, gun manufactures put out turds. It's just true. I think. It's definitely not easy to determine if it's us or the gun.
I can't shoot my Colt DS for nothing. I shot the 442 way better and it's way lighter. But I'm pretty sure the timing is off or something is up with the function of it. I'm not completely sure, but I just know it doesn't shoot for me at all. And it never has. I carried it for a long time and it probably would've worked at very close distance. But past 5 yards and I'm not sure I'd hit much under a lot of stress. It was that bad. Then I got the 442 and even though I'm not stellar with it, it was like volumes better.
Did you ever get a chance to shoot someone else's J frame? I would think renting one or trying someone elses that was a known shooter would let you know if it's you or not.
But it's true, gun manufactures put out turds. It's just true. I think. It's definitely not easy to determine if it's us or the gun.
I can't shoot my Colt DS for nothing. I shot the 442 way better and it's way lighter. But I'm pretty sure the timing is off or something is up with the function of it. I'm not completely sure, but I just know it doesn't shoot for me at all. And it never has. I carried it for a long time and it probably would've worked at very close distance. But past 5 yards and I'm not sure I'd hit much under a lot of stress. It was that bad. Then I got the 442 and even though I'm not stellar with it, it was like volumes better.
I think the OP showed way more patience that I would have. I've bought several turds from Smith over the years. Some i dumped some I sent back. My 629-1 was one of those turds. I had to send it back twice before they got it right. It then became a great gun.
As for the J-frames. When I bought my model 60 (no dash) I had a red ramp installed and the rear notch opened up a tad. That really helped a lot. I know, a sacrilege to the collectors, but this was and still is a working gun that I bought new. I also carved out the original grips for speed loader use, so there! The more recent addition of a bobbed hammer and even more recent addition of VZ boot grips has further enhanced it. It's not an airweight but it seems light enough in the pocket. I don't target shoot it for fun but I do qualify with it without issue. I have other stuff I'd rather go target shooting with. Right now I'm in love with my new 69 which carries amazingly well but I do wonder about liability issues should I have to use it. Of course I carried a 6" 629 for 20+ years on duty so that would be my reasoning for carrying the 69 as a CCW.
I ramble, sorry.
I agree the OP did right sending it back!
(Makena Beach resident circa 1971-2, Maui Nō Ka ʻOi)
As for the J-frames. When I bought my model 60 (no dash) I had a red ramp installed and the rear notch opened up a tad. That really helped a lot. I know, a sacrilege to the collectors, but this was and still is a working gun that I bought new. I also carved out the original grips for speed loader use, so there! The more recent addition of a bobbed hammer and even more recent addition of VZ boot grips has further enhanced it. It's not an airweight but it seems light enough in the pocket. I don't target shoot it for fun but I do qualify with it without issue. I have other stuff I'd rather go target shooting with. Right now I'm in love with my new 69 which carries amazingly well but I do wonder about liability issues should I have to use it. Of course I carried a 6" 629 for 20+ years on duty so that would be my reasoning for carrying the 69 as a CCW.
I ramble, sorry.
I agree the OP did right sending it back!
(Makena Beach resident circa 1971-2, Maui Nō Ka ʻOi)
Firesticks
Member
My 638 shoots high and to the left. Matters not from double action offhand or single action off a sandbag. It is close enough for what I purchased it's intended use.CLOSE range self protection. I don't plan on shooting gophers with it at 25-50 yds. My Ruger Mk3 Target is for that kind of shooting. I suspect after 5k rounds and others having issues with the gun and it shoots off to the same point consistently it is the gun.
tipoc
Member
Here is my M60-7 at 8 yards aimed single action fire.
The target above is 15 rounds of Blazer 158 gr. LRN.
Below is 15 rounds of 130 gr. FMJ American Eagle
Below 50 rounds of 158 gr. Speer IIRC at 8 yards rapid fire DA from an M640.
J frames are more difficult to shoot due to the ergonomics.
tipoc
The target above is 15 rounds of Blazer 158 gr. LRN.
Below is 15 rounds of 130 gr. FMJ American Eagle
Below 50 rounds of 158 gr. Speer IIRC at 8 yards rapid fire DA from an M640.
J frames are more difficult to shoot due to the ergonomics.
tipoc
Engieman
Member
Nothing better to look at than snub with some great looking wood grips. Spegel's on a blued gun, or any gun with beautifully grained wood. However you just can't beat putting some CTC laser grips on for practicality, ergonomics and accuracy. Put them on my Wife's nickel Model 49 Smith, and that thing deadly! Turns a carry gun into a target gun (well, kinda....) looks and works really good as well. I look, caress and admire many of my guns accumulated over the years, but for carry a laser turns it from art into an efficient tool......
I find when shooting those J frames what works for me is very little front sight almost like your pushing gun down use very little of the front sight small piece. IN my opinion ONLY the triggers on the newer guns are very heavy get a good gunsmith or if your handy the apex kit that will help I think. Also make sure after 30 years you know this make sure you trigger finger is in the right place. This is just my 2 cents that the J frame is hard to shot but once you master it you will like it I love them good luck to you.
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ABPOS
Member
I want to try one someday on my 442. A few people I trust say it's a good tool for that gun in low light. I've only tried a laser once on a .22 and didn't like it. But I may have to try again sometime.
This afternoon I finally got my Model 638 back from S&W. Nice. It took 3 weeks total going and coming back. I scanned a couple forms that was included with gun regarding the repair work. Looks like the barrel was realigned and a couple test shots were take before and after the repair. I'm hoping to get out to the range as soon as I can. Working two jobs just makes it a bit more harder to get around in doing the fun stuff. I'll let you guys know how it works out. Aloha and mahalo.
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