Potential first 1917 HE purchase - help please

[moleary]

Hi folks...new to the forum but learning a ton from you all.

I'm in process (a long one) of collecting representative US Army handguns from Civil War to present...and the time has come to find a decent 1917 HE (and maybe a Colt brother at some point).

I am checking out for the second time this w/e a possible candidate in a local shop with the following details (sorry no pix yet): matching SNs on under-barrel, grip bottom, and cylinder (78xxx); ".45 Hand Ejector Model 1917"; Eagle over S2; underneath barrel: SN 78xxx plus inverted "841" next to SN, then United States Property; grip bottom: US Army Model 1917 No 78xxx with eagle over S1. Grips are walnut and appear original and decent shape, but didn't take them off to check for SN inside.

Can't remember if I saw an exploding ordnance mark on frame or not...will check again.

As for condition, I was pretty impressed with lack of wear on finish, but wouldn't hazard a guess on percentage...not good enough to do that.

Dealer said it is a consigned gun from an elderly gentleman starting to unload his collection. Asking $799 after supposedly reducing from initial price of $1100. He mentioned that others had checked out the gun and lowballed him, claiming a refinish job, which he disputes.

My questions for you please:
1. My long reads of this and other forums tells me its tough to tell a refinish job, especially if its good...so any typical signs to look for in an original or reblue job?

2. What are the other markings I should inspect for in this SN range? (example, ordnance bomb instead of GHS...)

3. Assuming it checks out as seemingly all original but only question is refinished or not...what would you estimate value for refinish and what value for original (assume 90% plus)?

This is a retail gun shop, not a pawn shop.

Many thanks in advance...you all are very enjoyable and educational to read.

Mike

 

[john traveler]

Mike,

The obvious signs of a refinish are easy to detect when you've seen a few samples.

Re-bluing involves polishing off the old finish down to bright, raw steel. This typically involves buffing wheels and abrasive grit of various grades and polishing (buffing) compound. Indifferent or careless workmanship will typically leave wavy surfaces that should be flat and true, rounded off edges where transition to another surface should crisp and clean. And finally, buffing removes the crisp, sharply defined roll marks and stampings looking smeared and indistinct.

Once you've seen expertly polished and reblued guns, you could not possibly mistake them for the usual buffed and polished jobs that reduce a gun's value.

 

[moleary]

Many thanks John...indeed it's the "expertly polished and reblued" piece that concerns me. I'm looking for original finish and I'm pretty sure I can spot a bad job for the reasons you state...especially since the 1917 HE has so much lettering on it to examine closely.

Another few questions to add:
1. Can anyone tell me the purpose of the inverted number next to the SN? (841) Is that a refurb number of some sort?

2. Lastly, what's the intent behind xx-ing out the last digits of a SN in postings? I'm doing it but don't know why...

Thanks,
Mike

 

[bgrafsr]

I cannot tell you about the inverted number 841, as I'm no where near being knowledgeable enough to do so, but the reason many persons use X's as part of the serial number when typing the number on an online forum, is to conceal the exact SN, as some people are uncomfortable about revealing the entire number to the online world.

 

[DCWilson]

Very good (but not foolproof) indicators of a refinish can be found on the ejector rod/cylinder assembly.

Look at the front of the ejector rod. The face of the knob has a bevel on it. If that beveled surface is blued, the gun is probably a refinish. The same story is told by the surfaces of the ratchet on the rear of the cylinder. On the other hand, if the ratchet teeth and beveled ejector knob surface are in the white, the gun is likely to have its original finish. Also, look at the exposed hammer stud under the thumb latch and other smaller-diameter frame studs and pins. In a refinished gun they will be a little (or a lot) flatter than studs and pins on an original finish revolver.

Other giveaways are the hammer and trigger. If they are blued, then they (and presumably the entire gun) have been given a secondary finish. Original hammers and triggers on S&Ws are always case-hardened.

I don't know about the inverted 841 under the barrel. On other models (I'm not sure about 1917s), if there is a star next to the serial number and a number like 841 appears stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stocks, that would indicate a factory return for work -- possibly a refinish -- in August of 1941.

If it's an original finish gun in 90%+ condition, I'd say a price in the $750-800 range is reasonable in today's market. If you can get pics, please post them. A lot of people here can spot a refinished gun from details in the photos. And sometimes people think a gun is 90% when it is actually somewhat better.

 

[moleary]

And I thought I was up on the net way too early this morning! You guys must be old like me!

Thanks so much for the expert advice. Gives me plenty of ammo to examine this pistol in depth. If I wind up forking out the dough...you'll see it soon!

Mike

 

[handejector]

The inverted 841 bothers me.
Is that number stamped inside the yoke cut?
Is that number stamped on the cyl- look under the extractor?

When some 1917's were arsenal refinished, they stamped marking numbers on various parts so they could put the same gun back together.
WHY they did that escapes me, since every major part already had the serial number!!
Some arsenal refinishes are not bad buffing jobs. They are not quite factory, but they are not too bad usually.

The number under the barrel is not a service dept date.

Also, hammer studs on these guns are hard to use as a refinish sign. Because they are recessed, they won't show buffing usually. The other studs will show buffing.

 

[moleary]

Lee, without the gun in front of me, and (I have to be very careful here) my wife assisting me last week by logging the data on a sticky note without listing the location of the info...I have the data, but relying on a poor memory for location on the gun.

That said, the 841 does show up elsewhere on the frame, I think on the left side but not sure. It was part of a grouping of numbers: a much larger "2" followed by "42" "178" then the eagle over S2, and the "8 41" (with space in between) was underneath these numbers as well (in addition to being next to the SN under the barrel). Given the space, Aug 1941 seems plausible to me...

(Wish I had pix for you, but can't get there til Saturday...)

 

[H Richard]

Sounds to me the "841" was an assembly number stamped on various parts by S&W originally. When you view the writing on the gun, especially the barrel, are the letters edges blended into the surrounding metal, or just "slightly" raised on the edges? It may take a magnifying glass to see. If "raised" would indicate unmolested finish.

 

[moleary]

Sounds to me the "841" was an assembly number stamped on various parts by S&W originally. When you view the writing on the gun, especially the barrel, are the letters edges blended into the surrounding metal, or just "slightly" raised on the edges? It may take a magnifying glass to see. If "raised" would indicate unmolested finish.

Roger...have lighted magnifier/will travel! Intend to look for exactly what you describe...sharp edges on all lettering.

 

[handejector]

Sounds to me the "841" was an assembly number stamped on various parts by S&W originally. When you view the writing on the gun, especially the barrel, are the letters edges blended into the surrounding metal, or just "slightly" raised on the edges? It may take a magnifying glass to see. If "raised" would indicate unmolested finish.

Barrels do not have assembly numbers. Only frames and yokes and sideplates (inside).

When guns are dated by the factory, they are dated only in ONE spot, and that place is the lower left grip frame. I have never seen or heard of the factory dating a gun anywhere but the left grip frame.

1917 roll marks will NOT be raised because they were applied before final polishing.

 

[moleary]

Thanks Lee...esp the fact about roll marking prior to finishing! Could have been a big mistaken assumption.

When you say "lower left grip frame" I'm assuming you mean I need to look under the grips to find the number?

 

[handejector]

Yes, under the grips.

 

[The Wizard]

I am wondering if th 841 is actually S41? If it is S41 it could be an inspector's stamp.

 

[JSR III]

First, welcome to the forum. You will find this to be the most friendly and knowledgable group on the net.

Many guns were refurbished after WWII service and for military weapons I am less bothered by it. Don't ask me why, it just seems a normal course in the history or life of these arms. It is difficult to be specific about markings without seeing the gun in person or at least through quality close up photos. Some military weapons had rack numbers installed during their service life and again, to me, it is just part of their pedigree. Some folks don't mind it and some folks turn their noses up at such guns. I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

I own 2 1917's. One I bought in 2000 for $600 and the other I paid over $1,000 in 2005. I probably paid a little too much for the second one due to its condition and the serial number was unique for me.

I would think that the reduced price of $800 is probably not to far off of the current going price. As a way of double checking, you can search a couple of the internet sites and see what S&W 1917's are selling for. As for refinish, others have all ready advised many of the tell tale ways to make that determination.

Even if the gun is refinished, for $800 you will own a very cool piece of American history and if you plan to shoot the gun, they are real fun to shoot.

We will need pictures if you buy!!!

 

[moleary]

No go on the first purchase today. Dealer I had talked to last week was not there and had to talk to a young guy who knew next to nothing about the gun. After examining in great depth (thanks to you guys), I concluded it was as original as I could tell, but had been factory refinished about 25+ years ago. (The guy pulled out a newer looking blue S&W DA revolver box with this gun's model and SN labeled on the side, and it had a date stamp of 1983 inside the box cover.)

Grips were proper but refinished (no pencil marks inside); no factory markings inside the grip frame. Contrary to my earlier post, the inverted "841" was next to the SN inside the yoke under the cylinder. Proper but faint ordnance flaming bomb marking on left side upper frame. The rebluing job was professional, but the last owner had shot the hell out of it since then apparently (I was told he was a local pistol champion in his day). The finish was basically gone everywhere on the exterior grip frame (from lots of handling/shooting I guess).

At the end of the day, I feel the same as JSR...I wouldn't mind at all picking up a 1917 that had had an honest, service-related rebuild early or mid-life (say WWII)...part of the lifecycle and character. I just didn't see 1983 as meeting that definition.

By the way, the guy wouldn't take less than $725 (not incl tax)...so it was an easier decision (made even easier since I just found out I actually OWE Uncle Sam this tax season for the first time in a long time!)

Meantime, I'll keep looking...thanks again for all the help!

Mike

 

[cooker]

Mike,I cannot address any of the questions on the weapon itself(hence ,why I am here----to learn),however I think I can address your question on the serial number blocking.

I am one of those"paranoid" posters that leave at least 2 numbers out,I am also a patrol Sgt. with a sheriffs office and have over 20 years on the job.Below is a scenario,you decide.

I go to a "burglary"(in La. this is someone breaking into your house and stealing your goodies,some states call it other things),the "victim" tells me his gun collection is the only thing missing.My next step is to ask him Make,Model,and does he by any chance have the SERIAL NUMBERS written down (95% dont),NOW! he produces a list of say S&W model 1917s with numbers perloined from this sight,I have NO idea of this and proceed to have them entered into NCIC as STOLEN in a burglary.

I realize ,most on here are honest enthusiasts, BUT You go to sell it,someone runs it,and YOU get arrested for possesion of stolen property!!!!YES,in the end you will probably be able to prove the legitamacy of your purchase,BUT ,is it worth all that grief for a coupla asteriks???? Me,I dont think so.

 

[moleary]

Thanks Cooker...seems pretty logical for at least one scenario...