Pre-mod 10/Victory .38 S&W?

[Nicksterdemus]

S&W Pre-Model 10 .38 S&W - Smith & Wesson Model 10 Revolvers

I'd enjoy some opinions on this HE. The barrel, cylinder & extractor match, 670313, though the cylinder has fading colour.

There's the P proof on the left side, the 4.75" barrel is stamped .38 S&W on the right, Smith & Wesson on the left and btw it isn't pinned. Comes w/rib sporting a geometric pattern and a round blade w/rear quarter relieved.

Someone jeweled the hammer and the serrated trigger. Looks like a project/Frankengun that's had a barrel/trigger/stock swap.

No doubt the unpinned barrel w/engraved rib is the most interesting aspect. What .38 S&W employed that style barrel?

 

[DWalt]

You are probably right about it being a frankengun. That SN is a bit low (probably from late 1938) for it to be a British pre-Victory .38/200. But it has a .38 S&W barrel. What are the SNs on the flat on the bottom of the barrel and the rear face of the cylinder?

 

[gunfish]

The asking price is too high for a modified M&P.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Everything is allegedly as I've not personally inspected the arm. I asked for the SN & if they matched. He said the SN on the barrel flat/cylinder was 67031X. I asked if the extractor number was the same. Took him a minute, but he said yes.

Then I asked if those matched the butt. He claims no numbers there whatsoever. I had him pull the gaudy plastique & take a peek. No SN there either. When I inquired about numbers on the yoke he said they weren't SN and I presume them to be assembly numbers.

For all I know he was reading a description of inventory from the computer. The serrated trigger, ribbed pin-less barrel and frame w/o pin or plugged/repaired hole leaves the door open for possibilities.
[Victory came w/serrated trigger, not a pinless barrel though the pin has been ground flush w/frame]
However, the jeweled trigger/hammer, from here looking at pics, combined w/rest suggests homegrown customizing. I'm speculating that the same gent that jeweled the trigger/hammer also notched the front blade into a target sight of sorts. Suppose what grain matches the height at 25 metre?

I struck a little better deal as the asking price had already dropped, yet still it languished. Imagine that. So, I believe a three day inspection is extended. I was looking for a K-frame .38 S&W and the combination of serrated trigger and ribbed barrel spoke to me. I'm sure I paid too much. Much the same as the 4 boxes of 146gn LRN .38 S&W recently purchased online. At least I didn't pay sales tax and had a coupe-un that covered the shipping as well as shaving a whole buck a box on price. Still came in at over 20 clams a box to the door. That would be depressing if I sat around and mulled on it a while.

As previously mentioned the ribbed barrel w/modest engraving is interesting. Especially being in .38 S&W calibre. I wonder if they didn't measure to the cylinder and it's really 5" instead of 4.75". Seeing how that was the preferred length for the tapered 38 cartridge at least in the Victory. The profile of the rib is quite similar to my 15-4 ramp sight notwithstanding.

Of course when I hear no butt SN and do not see even the outline of a barrel pin on the frame it piques me curiosity a mite. Regardless of matching barrel/cylinder/extractor the stamped P on the frame is a military proof. The pics will zoom to bring out decent detail and if there was a barrel pin hole allotted to the frame it has been camouflaged well.

 

[DCWilson]

I suppose as soon as I say this someone will post a pic proving me wrong, but I don't think S&W ever produced a variety of the British Service Revolver with a ribbed barrel. That rib looks to me to be carefully fitted and welded on, or maybe pinned in a way that I can't see in the pics. In a moment of free-wheeling speculation I wondered if that was the upper part of a Webley barrel that was shaped to fit atop a prewar M&P barrel, but on sober reflection that strikes me as really unlikely. If that is the original barrel, this gun has the lowest serial number I know on a prewar M&P chambered in .38 S&W, though I have an unconfirmable ghost memory of reading about one numbered 669xxx. For another modified .38 S&W revolver with a barely higher serial number than yours, see this thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/356388-can-anybody-give-me-any-info.html

Regardless of the barrel marking, does the cylinder accept .38 Special rounds? If so, does it also accept .38 S&W rounds? I'm thinking it may have been rebuilt as a .38 Special with a better grade of plastic surgery than a lot of these BSRs got after their wartime service was over.

I did some proportion comparison, and I think that probably is a 4.75" barrel, not five inch. Note that the rib and muzzle are flush. In addition the muzzle doesn't look to be crowned, though that could just be the camera angle.

Even though it seems to be heavily modified, I think I might letter that gun to see where it went and what it looked like when it left home. BSR Prototype? Early South African revolver? Inquiring minds want to know.

EDITED TO ADD: I have learned that the gun in the thread I linked to has a V prefix and is therefore of wartime production and not a good comparison to this one. I now wonder if the seller did not recognize a V prefix on the secondary serial numbers on the gun that started this thread and that he described to the buyer. More below.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

The claim, I'm still awaiting delivery, is that the chambers are .38 S&W and have not been modified to accept the special. We'll see. I wondered myself if the rib was soldered then blued, but currently w/o the arm and only pics it's hard to say. Whilst the pics zoom nicely for close-ups the resolution is still lacking for fine toothed scrutiny.

As is it's just an unusual piece until I can get me mitts on it and confirm various points of interest. Thanks for the link I'll take a peek posthaste. Likewise, I'd like to know when it shipped, where, what trim she was sportin' and if it ever came back to the factory.

What's another fifty simoleons? I can't buy two and half boxes of ammo for that amount and the low SN is intriguing. Thanks again for sharing the wealth of knowledge.

 

[GerSan69]

The price is gone from the link...may I ask what the final price was?
I'm no expert on older guns, not by a "long shot." Even so, I've never seen a barrel like that on a fixed sight gun.
Hope it's a good shooter!

 

[Nicksterdemus]

The original asking price was $519.99. After none bit it was dropped to $449.99. I really have no idea how long the arm was offered at that tier as that was the asking price when I stumbled across the old shooter.

Different companies offered aftermarket barrels that came w/roll stamp S&W markings as I understand. Also, as David pointed out it could be a barrel w/rib from another arm affixed as an afterthought ala Cal Custom.

Probably the result of someone's imagination that had more time than money. Though I'll wager those stocks replaced a much nicer set before the last sale.

 

[DWalt]

"Then I asked if those matched the butt. He claims no numbers there whatsoever."

If that's true, it makes the gun both illegal and worthless.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Point taken, but I wasn't there when the employee allegedly pulled the arm & stocks. Could've been blowing smoke on that & the unaltered chambers for all I know. I figure more than likely the vast majority of the time they look up the reference number on the computer and perhaps there's a little more detail than what's posted that they can add.

All I know is that they purchased the arm at some point, filled out paperwork and are delivering it to me sold for at least a three day inspection period.

I've bought a few arms online that didn't quite live up to what they were panned out to be. The one that most oft comes to mind is the Model 1917 from a jerint in Kansas that were spoken highly of though they sold it to me w/5 digit assembly number listed as the SN instead of the actual, yet unbeknownst to me 6 digit SN.

 

[DCWilson]

In a post above I referred to a modified (engraved, actually) .38 S&W revolver whose serial number was slightly above the one we are discussing here. It now appears to me that the gun I referred to has a V prefix and is therefore of wartime manufacture rather than dating to prewar years. The owner lettered that gun and recently received a letter that is posted as an attachment in this thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/377581-how-much-revolver-worth.html

(The image is quite small and cannot be clearly read when enlarged, but it is for a gun with a V prefix.)

I now wonder if the gun we are discussing here also has a V prefix to the secondary serial numbers on the gun. The seller may not have understood their diagnostic importance and simply didn't mention them. I understand that the butt is smooth, so if there was a V prefix to be seen there once, it is not there now.

With this additional insight I am now not sure that this admittedly interesting modification is worth a letter. If a close inspection shows that it must be a later gun with an obliterated serial number, I would probably return it under the three-day right of inspection.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Thanks again David. I posted an inquiry on that thread, since deleted, but I'll bring it here concerning the skinny serrated trigger.

Thanks David as the V would make the difference.
I was reading the RAF Pilot thread and noted in the pics that the Pre-Victory .38 S&W had a serrated trigger.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/275563-38s-w-wwii-raf-issue-revolver.html [Post 5 pic 5 of 5]

When did they make an appearance in this time frame? On page 143 SCSW I note the mention of M&P Postwar Pre-Model 10 coming w/case colour .240 serrated trigger. Surely it wasn't hit or miss on smooth/serrated. I also note no mention of a .38 S&W in the Pre-Model 10

Naturally, after asking the question, I see mention on Pg. 139 M&P 1905 4th change the service version receiving a .265 smooth trigger & target a serrated though it doesn't specifically mention if the target trigger is also .265. Is the target .265 or .240? Did S&W relieve .025 from the M&P target trigger?[have since learned that Victorys came w/serrated triggers]

If indeed that trigger came on the RAF pistola w/o target sights is there some idea/percentage compared to smooth triggers among Pre-Victorys? Or was it matter early own of using whatever was available and no big whoop over using a serrated trigger?

 

[Nicksterdemus]

That rib looks to me to be carefully fitted and welded on, or maybe pinned in a way that I can't see in the pics. In a moment of free-wheeling speculation I wondered if that was the upper part of a Webley barrel that was shaped to fit atop a prewar M&P barrel, but on sober reflection that strikes me as really unlikely.

Webley & Enfield both enjoyed a blade perched on a rather massive rectangle plateau. I wondered if the rib might be an earlier/less expensive type of a Parker Hale style raised rib. It would fit the calibre coupled w/heavy grain projectile. Then again perhaps, in a moment of inspiration, a blanco/negrasmith artisan spun it out on a lathe combining hammer, anvil, awl, iron & lead.

A target hybrid of sorts that added weight to the nose steadying aim whilst engraving provided a bit o' panache. Form, function & frivolity induce aire a'la savoir faire for sporting gent at county match.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Update:
No crown on the 4 13/16" barrel. Someone cut both sides of the front sight base down to the top of the barrel. Creating a 3/8" tall 1/10" wide blade. Then they notched the back of the round sight on a slight forward slant 3/16" down/half way as the "new" front sight base height. The front sight base of the barrel rib was cut out in the center 1/10" the width of the front blade. The cutout is filled by the front blade to form a cohesive unit. Front sight remains the same height & the barrel w/new base are cut flat to match at the muzzle. I'm not sure why they didn't leave the barrel crown/length alone. Perhaps they liked the flat look of the barrel & base combo.
Left side of barrel has SMITH & WESSON whilst the right side uses smaller type and a bit of a different ampersand 38 S. & W. CTG and both ends of the roll mark contains three marks. Two horizontal flanked by a vertical that looks sort of like a T sideways. Barrel pin ends are ground flat w/frame & I cannot see it w/o a loupe. B/C gap .008.

Extractor star/cylinder has one pin. [Pg 139 SCSW 38 M&P 1905 2nd change, "Two dowel pins are generally found in the star extractor." 1906-1909] SN V670313 P on the barrel flat & cylinder face. 670313 behind the star. Frame cut-out 32033 and that has a U above the numbers. Yoke & inside of sideplate has 32033. Under the stocks on the left side is U, V, 1, & a little c inside of a recessed circle that looks a lot like a copyright stamp. Right side has an upside down 4 and a 6 and the lanyard hole in the bottom of the gripframe apparently has been plugged.

The butt is flat, smooth w/no numbers. I see impressions from little dings through a 10x loupe and they appear to have been there a while. It still has decent blue except for the edges of the rectangle. Front/back strap blue is worn off from wear along w/some muzzle

Cylinder locks up tight & chambers have not been altered. Made in USA on the right w/large trademark REG. U.S. PAT. OFF on right sideplate. Serrated trigger has been jeweled and looks nice though the hammer isn't nearly as brilliant. Other than the p proof on the left side twixt the frame window and hammer there's no other cartouche/initials/proofs.

I'm not quite sure how they came to an understanding that this was a Pre-Mod 10. I cannot prove that the barrel/cylinder/extractor star came on that frame. Nor can I disprove the notion. The three assembly numbers match the frame and the barrel/cylinder/extractor SN match. The only two items I can find that could tie them together are the p proof on the left side of frame/barrel flat/cylinder face and the V stamp on the gripframe/barrel flat/cylinder face. Looks like someone jazzed it up a bit and in the process of plugging the lanyard hole they cleaned up the numbers as well. Conspiracy theories aside I've no reason to think that the frame isn't also SN V670313.

On the Victory Data Base thread I note:

"The P-proof markings on the upper left frame don't begin to show up on Navy-shipped Victory Models until about January, 1944."
I'm not saying this was a Navy-shipped Victory I'm saying it has the p proof.

 

[DWalt]

"The butt is flat, smooth w/no numbers."

The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618 (GCA-1968):

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

--------------------
Uh.... Without a legible SN on the butt, you have a contraband weapon. Nothing else about the gun makes the slightest difference. The prosecutor won't care. Get your money back.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

I received an opinion from a Cabela's gun library manager.

" Recently made guns (since 1970) must have a number on the frame but on older guns, ATF is happy if there is any number at all anywhere on the gun. There is no ATF problem ... "

I'm not sure of any particular ruling in 1970 from whence this was referenced or rendered.

 

[arjay]

If the wrong person sees it,you're going to be in a bind and out (at least) what you paid for it.

 

[DWalt]

I hope your Cabela's guy is a lawyer and will defend you free of charge if you get caught with it. He's DEAD wrong. And so are you for believing him.

 

[JP@AK]

Why would you want to risk your future, including the possibility of losing your rights as a felon, based upon the word of a store sub-manager who has nothing to lose by giving you phony information and everything to gain by having a completed sale behind him? I suggest you go over his head to a higher manager. Take a copy of the BATFE law and regs with you, and get your money back. Hereafter, find another store to do business with. I guarantee that Dick Cabela would refund your money in a heartbeat, no questions asked. Unfortunately, he died recently.

 

[DWalt]

If Cabela's gives you any flak, remind them that they are guilty under GCA-1968 of selling you a firearm with a removed SN - in the event a threat is in order to get your money back.