Pre model 11?

[chiefdave]

Sorry, no pictures. I have what the seller described as a 90%+ pre 11 on the way. S/N 918173, post war brushed blue finish, lanyard loop, 38 S&W caliber, smooth walnut Victory style stocks with semi gloss finish and numbered to the revolver. No acceptance, property or proof marks. SCSW doesn't say much about this model except it was a non-cataloged item and Pate's book nothing.

I was thinking that it should have sharp shoulder Magna's. Once I pay the x'fer dealer I'm in at $550 but it wouldn't be the first S&W I paid too much for.

 

[DWalt]

Does the SN have an S prefix? 918173 (no letter prefix) would indeed be a pre-Victory, but not a pre-Model 11. That SN would date it from around early 1942. The earliest "pre-Model 11s" were the 10,000 or so produced starting in February 1947, and that would make the SN as being in the roughly very low S9xxxxx range. So S918173 could be one of them.

 

[murphydog]

If the serial number has no S prefix, it is very likely a late pre-Victory Model from 1942. The brush blue and smooth stocks would be appropriate for this model; a post-war S prefix gun would have had Magna stocks.

The collector purity police would state a "pre-model 11" needs to be a four-screw gun from sometime around 1956-'57, as the model stamp would be the only difference between one of these and a model 11. I do not belong to this department...

The lack of British commercial proof stampings suggest it came back through unofficial channels, like a seabag (not that you have seen one of those before ). Interested to see the photos.

 

[DWalt]

Indeed, the "pre-model" M&Ps (unofficial terminology) are usually considered by collectors as beginning with the adoption of the short action at around SN S990xxx. Prior to that, they are just plain postwar M&Ps. At around SN C429xxx model numbering began in the late 1950s.

 

[JP@AK]

The earliest "pre-Model 11s" were the 10,000 or so produced starting in February 1947, and that would make the SN as being in the roughly very low S9xxxxx range. So S918173 could be one of them.

The .38/200 revolvers made in 1947 are interesting. I have only been able to identify two in all my research into the immediate postwar M&P. Both of them shipped overseas and carried V prefix serial numbers! Yes, they were in the midst of the S prefix number range, but for some reason were given V prefix serial numbers. The two I have identified carried serial numbers in the V89xxxx range.

They did have 5" barrels, just like the majority of BSRs during the war.

I'm guessing that chiefdave's revolver is one that came before April, 1942, and does not have a prefix. And I agree - I would not call it a "pre-model 11."

 

[DWalt]

"The two I have identified carried serial numbers in the V89xxxx range."

Very odd. I wonder if they had the improved hammer drop safety? Apparently there was a significant number of the M&P .38s made after WWII for use in various corners of the (former) British Empire (like India, Malaya, Kenya, etc.) for some period of time, but I have never seen a number. One wonders why they didn't just distribute all those wartime BSRs they had in storage instead of buying new M&Ps. I seem to remember Ruger was also making some Speed Six revolvers chambered in .38 S&W during the late 1970s for the same purpose.

 

[JP@AK]

"The two I have identified carried serial numbers in the V89xxxx range."

Very odd. I wonder if they had the improved hammer drop safety?

I don't know, but I suspect they did. That change had been in effect since December, 1944. Two years later, there would probably not have been any sideplates left that lacked provision for the improved safety device. But I'm just guessing.

 

[chiefdave]

Here is a picture from the auction site. Don't know about the S and since the revolver is in transit I'll have to wait and see.

 

[Hondo44]

One wonders why they didn't just distribute all those wartime BSRs they had in storage instead of buying new M&Ps.

A zillion of those war time BSRs were re-purposed by the allies' sponsored police departments in conquered 'axis powers' countries.

 

[DWalt]

Grips are smooth wood like the Victories, starting in 1942. But may be replacements. Postwar M&Ps should have Magna grips, but if the British ordered smooth wood, that is what they got. Extractor rod has the barrel-shaped knob, so earlier than mid-1947. Hammer indicates the old long action, pre-October 1947 shipment. One line frame stamping, so from before mid-1948. Finish looks postwar, but there is always the possibility of it being a re-finish. It could well be an M&P from the Feb 1947 .38 S&W production. In which case it should have a SN with the S prefix. Or maybe even a V prefix. Should be interesting to find out more details when you get it, especially if all SNs match (including grips) and whether it has the improved hammer drop safety. It will probably be worth getting lettered.

 

[murphydog]

A nice condition, unmolested pre-Victory is difficult to find, so I don't think you did too badly if yours turns out to be one of these. But it would be really cool to be post-war .

 

[Hondo44]

Here is a picture from the auction site. Don't know about the S and since the revolver is in transit I'll have to wait and see.

Now that the auction is completed, it's OK to semd us a link to the auction.

I can see that since it retains the pre war/wartime hammer, it does not have the short action and therefore cannot be a Pre Model 11 unill after ~ s/n S990184, after April 7, 1948.

 

[Absalom]

"The two I have identified carried serial numbers in the V89xxxx range."

..... One wonders why they didn't just distribute all those wartime BSRs they had in storage instead of buying new M&Ps.....

The post-war .38 S&W revolvers that are documented were a sizable batch for the Dutch East Indies. The backstrap stamp was K.N.I.L. I don’t believe this was a US government contract. Roy published a copy of the order, but I can’t remember where I saved the picture. So this wouldn’t be a matter of shipping surplus wartime BSR’s.

I am not aware of any post-war British or other government order for BSR’s in wartime configuration like the gun under consideration here with 5” barrel and smooth stocks. In fact, they started getting rid of them quite soon.

I also find the finish in the one available photo puzzling; the cylinder appears polished blue, the frame matte.

 

[murphydog]

I think the barrel/cylinder finish match, but not to the frame; my guess would be "getting the product to the Brits ASAP" (1942).

 

[Absalom]

I think the barrel/cylinder finish match, but not to the frame; my guess would be "getting the product to the Brits ASAP" (1942).

That would be the most hopeful interpretation

The problem is that the polished blue is more labor-intersive process, and by the time of this gun‘s serial, likely Feb. 1942, had been abandoned for a few months. If the gun has matching serial numbers, different finishes on different parts are a problem.

 

[chiefdave]

Does the SN have an S prefix?

I had a lucid moment and pulled up the auction photos remembering that there was a pix of the rear face of the cylinder and sure enough there is an S just like the rest of my post war M&P's.

As for the mismatch blue perhaps the purchase order was for a small batch or single unit and the factory changed out the cylinder and barrel on a completed revolver and the bluing department finished the replacement parts in the flavor of the day.

I've used my date request for this week but will try to get a place in line tomorrow and prepare a letter request.

Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread for your help.

 

[Absalom]

....there was a pix of the rear face of the cylinder and sure enough there is an S just like the rest of my post war M&P's.
.....
I've used my date request for this week but will try to get a place in line tomorrow and prepare a letter request.
....

Chief:

I‘m still holding any definite judgment until you are able to show us photos of the S prefix and matching number in the correct position on butt, barrel flat, and cylinder face. An S on just the cylinder is tantalizing, but can still be a service dept. stamp rather than the prefix.

I suggest you hold off on mailing the letter request until you have the gun in hand and are positive whether or not your request should have the S in front of the number

 

[Hondo44]

The S in that location on the cyl will not be for the Svc dept. But I'd still wait for gun to arrive before sending letter!

 

[mbliss57]

I love a good mystery gun thread...I can't wait to see pics of all the important parts to see what you really have. I also would hold off on letter just a bit.

 

[chiefdave]

The S in that location on the cyl will not be for the Svc dept. But I'd still wait for gun to arrive before sending letter!

I'll do that. Up early to go hunting so got the date request in. There must be a lot of recycled S&W serial numbers out there. Mr. Jinks reported my 1917 #58928 shared a s/n with a 38/44 and a pre war reg. magnum

 

[chiefdave]

The revolver arrived today and as some of you thought it is indeed a BSR. I would have liked it to be a post war but based on condition it's a keeper, must have set out the war in the rear with the gear. Numbers match except the grips which are 381 higher. No extra stampings other than what is shown on the butt and "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the top strap.

Thanks again to everyone who responded.
.

 

[murphydog]

The serial number format fits with a prewar .38 K frame. Is it 818173?

 

[chiefdave]

The serial number format fits with a prewar .38 K frame. Is it 818173?

No, the first digit is one of those log tailed pre war 9's. I learned a $65 lesson about them when I lettered a revolver and misread one as an 8. The stamps on the barrel and cylinder are a different font and much easier to read.

 

[JP@AK]

Rather what I suspected. Since you insisted there was an S prefix and got a date from Roy, I inserted it into my database with an asterisk. It has now been deleted and the date Roy provided can be dismissed.

I was pretty suspicious with that serial number, an S prefix and a .38 S&W CTG stamp on the barrel. It just didn't seem likely to be correct.

Live and learn, right?

 

[chiefdave]

Rather what I suspected. Since you insisted there was an S prefix and got a date from Roy, I inserted it into my database with an asterisk. It has now been deleted and the date Roy provided can be dismissed.

I was pretty suspicious with that serial number, an S prefix and a .38 S&W CTG stamp on the barrel. It just didn't seem likely to be correct.

Live and learn, right?

At worst I learned a little more about S&W and ended up with a fairly nice revolver that fits my niche.

 

[merl67]

That is one nice BSR most look like they were drug behind a car....

 

[mbliss57]

If the serial number has no S prefix, it is very likely a late pre-Victory Model from 1942. The brush blue and smooth stocks would be appropriate for this model; a post-war S prefix gun would have had Magna stocks.

]The collector purity police would state a "pre-model 11" needs to be a four-screw gun from sometime around 1956-'57, as the model stamp would be the only difference between one of these and a model 11. I do not belong to this department...

The lack of British commercial proof stampings suggest it came back through unofficial channels, like a seabag (not that you have seen one of those before ). Interested to see the photos.

Photo shows it is a 5 screw not a 4 screw. This should by your definition make this a pre victory model. This is something I learned from this thread and will make identification very simple going forward. Thanks for sharing.

 

[murphydog]

Photo shows it is a 5 screw not a 4 screw. This should by your definition make this a pre victory model. This is something I learned from this thread and will make identification very simple going forward. Thanks for sharing.

Yes...but the photo showed up after the post you quoted .

Also, the "pre" definition seems to shift around some - the above posts imply it is the short action that makes a .38 M & P a "pre-model 10", whereas in other models it appears to be defined as a gun with all the model stamped features but without the stamp (think 1957 4-screw K-22). Best just to back away from this debate, slowly...

 

[mbliss57]

Yes...but the photo showed up after the post you quoted .

Also, the "pre" definition seems to shift around some - the above posts imply it is the short action that makes a .38 M & P a "pre-model 10", whereas in other models it appears to be defined as a gun with all the model stamped features but without the stamp (think 1957 4-screw K-22). Best just to back away from this debate, slowly...

Ok I'll just spectate!

 

[DWalt]

The revolver arrived today and as some of you thought it is indeed a BSR. I would have liked it to be a post war but based on condition it's a keeper, must have set out the war in the rear with the gear. Numbers match except the grips which are 381 higher. No extra stampings other than what is shown on the butt and "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the top strap.

Just to clarify, you are saying that it has the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" topstrap stamping? If so, that is the lowest BSR SN on my list having that stamping (indicating that it is a Lend-Lease gun which probably shipped around 8-9/1941). Does anyone know of an earlier BSR SN having one?

While there is no "Official" definition as to what constitutes a "pre-Victory" my personal opinion is that only those revolvers which were shipped to the British Commonwealth military from 1940 onward and the relatively small number which went to the U. S. Navy prior to SN V1 should be called pre-Victories. Otherwise they are just civilian M&Ps.