Pre-model 18 sight question

[1blindref]

I was lucky enough to find this pre-model 18 on Gun Broker that was made in 1950. It's in nice shooter condition with all numbers matching, even the grips.

My question is about the sights. I'm not sure if they have been modified by a previous owner, or if they are an optional sight S&W might have offered in 1950. I've never seen any like them, but I've got a lot to learn and this is the Forum to learn it.

The front sight looks like it has gold paint or an epoxy like substance on it. If someone painted it, they did one hell of a nice job. Whatever it is, it's really on there. It does offer a better sight picture than a standard black sight.

The rear sight has a "V" cut out. I've seen factory "U" cut outs and square cut outs, but never a "V" cut out.

I'll probably have it lettered and I know that'll tell the story, but I was hoping some of the most seasoned Smith people can give me their take on these sights.

Thanks!

 

[DCWilson]

That is a very nice (and very early) Pre-18. It looks to me as though the front and rear sights have been home-modified to present a very thin front sight image through a narrowed notch in the rear leaf. I agree that it is a meticulous job. It looks as though the sight picture would leave a tiny black rectangular patch hanging above a white field in a V-shaped rear notch. Or possibly the reduced-dimension front sight picture would be nestled lower in the notch until it contacted the sloping edges of the V. That would be a solution if the gun shot high as it came from the factory. Note that the rear sight block is already as far down as it can go.

I am pretty sure this gun would letter with a regular ramp front sight. I think what you have is a skilled owner modification.

 

[1blindref]

Thank you for your response.
Is the rear blade with the "V" cut out replaceable? It looks like it might be able to slide out of the grove with some kind of sight pusher.

 

[DCWilson]

Yes, you can get replacement sight blades. You actually have to buy a rear sight kit that includes the new leaf, a new screw, and maybe a tiny spring as well. I forget exactly. There is a post about this in the gunsmithing FAQs on this forum.

I'm not sure if a modern rear sight kit would work on a classic rear sight like yours; that's a question you would need to get answered.

 

[1blindref]

Thanks David.

What is your take on the front sight?

I've been trying to find close up pictures of the factory ramp sights from that era to see if the one on my gun has just been painted or if there has been some modification made to the metal of the original sight, or if it's an aftermarket sight that was installed on the gun.

 

[DCWilson]

This isn't the best picture for purposes of discussion, but maybe it shows enough. This is the front end of my 1951 Pre-18.

Note that the ribbed ramp has about 17 horizontal grooves. The ramp on your gun shows about 10-12. What I think happened is that your front sight was ground lower, and then a much narrower blade section was epoxied to the top of the lowered ramp. That looks like about a 1/16" or even 1/20" inch upper portion to your sight, which is about the width of the earliest front sights on S&W hand ejectors. Perhaps your gun was modified by an old-timer who just couldn't stand the blockiness of postwar 1/8" sights.

You can get replacement front sights as well. I think the earliest Pre-18 sights were of a two-piece design, with a base that was pinned to the barrel rib, and then a blade that was inserted and pinned to the base. Your base is probably OK, so all you would need is a 1/8" ramp insert. They came in different heights. If I could find my micrometer I'd tell you how high the blade on my gun is.

Sometimes it is hard to spot the pins in front sight assemblies. They were polished flat to the adjacent surface before being blued. Sometimes you have to rock the gun back and forth under bright light and a magnifying glass before you can spot them.

 

[1blindref]

Thank you very much for taking the time to take a picture and sharing your knowledge with me.

I'll check for the sight pins with a magnifying glass when I get home. Your theory sounds like a good one. The narrowed part of the top of my sight has 4 or 5 groves in it. They look to be spaced out evenly with the 11 or 12 grooves on the lower part of the sight that hasn't been modified. This could very well be the original sight that was modified. Whoever did the work sure did a good job.

I'm planing on shooting the gun this evening to see how she shoots.
I'm somewhat of a purist so the sights on this gun having been bugging me!! If I can shoot her well with these sights, maybe I'll just let them be. The gun isn't a safe queen, just a nice shooter.

Maybe I'll just live with them.

 

[Hondo44]

I believe your sight had a notch filed on either side into the tip of the blade and agree with your observation that part of the original tip remains as evidenced by the matching serations. But based on the profile and only 13 serations, some of the tip is missing. Check the height with my measurement below. Then epoxy or maybe even some metal was melted and flowed into the notches on either side. Gold alloy perhaps?

My pre Mod 18 is the same vintage as yours with slightly higher serial number. My blade and base are one piece and I can see that yours is as well. The base is pinned to the barrel with two pins. My sight is original and unmodified. The blade is exactly .163" high above the base. You'd have to replace the blade/base assembly.

 

[1blindref]

Thanks Hondo.

I took it to the range last night and it shot fine but I had a very hard time picking up the front sight, as did two of my friends.

I think I'm going to look for a good S&W smith to replace the front and rear sights back to what they should be.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a good smith to do this work?
How about where I can find the original sights that went on this gun?

 

[PMRet]

I bid on this one early, and emailed the seller about the front sight. He insisted that it was original, but then again he had it listed as a Model 767 since those numbers were stamped in the crane opening, so obviously he didn't know a lot about it. I emailed a second time asking for better pictures and he again insisted that the sight was all original, so I dropped out.

Of course, it's still a very nice early combat masterpiece, even if you have to replace the sight.

 

[1blindref]

The seller is local to me and doesn't know a lot about S&W wheel guns (or some others guns either).

I was hoping that it was just paint on the sight when I bid on the gun. I really wanted a shooter pre-18 so the sight wasn't an issue at the price that I paid for the gun. I wasn't going any higher though

 

[PMRet]

The seller is local to me and doesn't know a lot about S&W wheel guns (or some others guns either).

I was hoping that it was just paint on the sight when I bid on the gun. I really wanted a shooter pre-18 so the sight wasn't an issue at the price that I paid for the gun. I wasn't going any higher though

The auction pictures looked like there was either gold paint on the front sight, or the top of the sight has been milled down to a thinner profile. Which is it? Maybe both?

 

[1blindref]

The auction pictures looked like there was either gold paint on the front sight, or the top of the sight has been milled down to a thinner profile. Which is it? Maybe both?

It looks like the top of the front sight was milled thinner and then a gold epoxy like substance was painted on it. I rubbed some paint thinner on the gold and it didn't remove any of it.

It's hard to see the top of the sight to line it up with the "V" notch in the rear sight.
I'm going to replace both sights with a pair of factory sights.