Pre Model 39 with a twist

[cougar015]

I just acquired a pre model 39 that is stamped both 9mm CTG and 9x21 on the barrel. The gun itself has proof marks on the frame , slide and barrel so we know it was once overseas. I have included a picture showing how a 9mm cartridge seats in a regular 9mm barrel (left side) vs the 9X21 barrel (right side). While the 9 mm cartridge will fit in the 9X21 barrel, It is not recommended to be used. Other than bullet seating, the only noticeable difference is the lug under the 9X21 barrel is machined out differently. It appears I can swap out a 9mm CTG barrel in this gun and it would fire the 9mm cartridge. I have data on Model 39's with the .30 caliber barrels but have not seen anything on a 9x21(IMI) I will be sending for a letter to see what information I can find as to original chambering and where it was shipped. I would welcome any information about this gun or cartridge.

 

[murphydog]

9 X 21 mm is apparently named "IMI", for Israeli Military Industries. Made where military chamberings are prohibited (i.e., 9 X 19).

Ammo is currently available online so why not pick up a few boxes? However if the frame or slide was not altered for the 9 X 21 barrel a replacement in 9 mm P will probably just drop in.

 

[Jim Watson]

The 9x21 was introduced as a workaround for no-military-caliber-weapon jurisdictions. The only one I know of for sure is Italy and I have read that they have dropped the requirement.

The case is 2mm longer but the bullet is seated deeper so the OAL is the same as 9mm P and the ballistics are the same.

For a while it had an application here as a rule beater in IPSC; 9mm Major Power Factor was not then allowed so there were a number of overloaded 9x21 CZ 75s being shot. Then the 2011 came out and you could get a high capacity .38 Super and the demand faded away.

 

[kwill1911]

Rich - I assume you'll letter it and then we'll know where in Europe it shipped. Can you get a close-up picture or describe the proof marks?

 

[squidsix]

9 X 21 mm is apparently named "IMI", for Israeli Military Industries. Made where military chamberings are prohibited (i.e., 9 X 19).

Ammo is currently available online so why not pick up a few boxes? However if the frame or slide was not altered for the 9 X 21 barrel a replacement in 9 mm P will probably just drop in.

IMI is an arms manufacturer. IMI sells weapons and ammo all over the world.

Israel has no such restrictions on caliber for civilians. Italy did, as mentioned, and a good friend used to swap a 9x21 barrel into his Sig M11 for NCIS duty there.

 

[cougar015]

Rich - I assume you'll letter it and then we'll know where in Europe it shipped. Can you get a close-up picture or describe the proof marks?

Kevin, Here are some pictures of the proof marks, CIP/N, A shield & a 17

 

[moosedog]

Interesting and a nice catch. I'm thinking that it was most likely modified overseas.

 

[kwill1911]

German commercial proof marks. It is CIP/N (replaced the Eagle/N about 2017) and the cross-hatched shield is for Munich.

 

[RWJ]

IMI is an arms manufacturer. IMI sells weapons and ammo all over the world.

Israel has no such restrictions on caliber for civilians. Italy did, as mentioned, and a good friend used to swap a 9x21 barrel into his Sig M11 for NCIS duty there.

Going further back in time, I have a Beretta .30 Luger barrel (made for the Beretta 98, same as the 92, which came in .30 Luger and 9x21) I obtained from a NIS agent, who had bought it while in Italy.


Those guys were crafty.......

 

[cougar015]

German commercial proof marks. It is CIP/N (replaced the Eagle/N about 2017) and the cross-hatched shield is for Munich.

Thanks for the validation on the proof marks. I came to the same conclusion. Getting ready to send for a letter, unfortunately it is taking several months to get one issued.

 

[gmborkovic]

Rich, you snagged a goodie. Obviously not a Bubba, back room modification. A right as rain pre-39 that has been modified by the factory and exported. I would bet not the only one done. Lets see what a Letter and hopefully an invoice reveal. The grips and flat follower mag made that deal. Would have been the cheery on the sundae with a numbered box and green booklet. Fair buy for the money.

 

[ReloadforFun]

The reason the 356TSW is 21.5 mm case length is because they realized they were already chambering guns for the 9x21. Thye extra halfmm was to prevent firiung 356TSW in 9x21 guns.

 

[cougar015]

Letter arrived today

Turns out getting this gun was a great snag. The verdict is in and besides being an early pre-Model 39, it was shipped from the factory to Mauritz Widforss H.A.B Stockholm Sweden on March 21, 1956. It was one of 24 in the shipment and Factory chambered for the 9X21 IMI.

 

[larry21556]

Interesting that it has no Swedish proofs but does have post 2017 German proofs. I wonder if Widforss H.A.B. would respond to an inquiry

 

[cougar015]

Interesting that it has no Swedish proofs but does have post 2017 German proofs. I wonder if Widforss H.A.B. would respond to an inquiry

I believe they only proof mark the gun when it is shipped back to the U.S. and since this one somehow made it to Germany before it was returned, that explains the marks. I googled Mauritz Widforss HAB in Sweden and found some links so I am going to try and contact them for any information.