"Pre" Models

[flundertaker]

In order to have or need the designation of "pre" when discussing a particular handgun, its required, I would think, that the model or specific type (however it was referred to) gun was made both prior to and following the introduction of model numbers. So guns that ceased production prior to 1957 and those whose manufacture began after 1957 would never have a "pre-model" version, correct? I am curios what's the list of guns that there are "pre-model" versions of? Obvious there's pre 27, pre 29 but Im guessing there's a bunch. Some may have long since gone away but if they spanned the just the right few years in the mid and late 50's then their out there, right?

 

[Doc44]

Pre-10, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 39, to identify a few (and there are many more).

Bill

 

[JP@AK]

Bill is correct in that the number of models that fit both categories is quite large.

One model that comes to mind immediately that does not qualify would be the .32-20 Hand Ejector. It was last cataloged in 1940 and there is good evidence that production actually stopped sometime before that, perhaps as long as a decade earlier. Hence, there was never a production .32-20 that carried a model number. All of them are pre-WWII units.

On the other hand, the Models 48, 49 and 53 would be examples of models that did not exist before model numbers were used.

BTW, summer 1957 is when model numbers were assigned. However, model numbers don't show up on guns shipped until 1958.

 

[Truckman]

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

 

[StrawHat]

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

 

[Model19man]

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

Indeed there is no reason I would ever use that term because when Smith & Wesson invented model numbers they did. Prior to that the revolvers had names. There was no pre - anything.

 

[glowe]

All models of S&W revolvers ever built had an official name and none made before 1957 or 1958 were named pre-anything. Just check period S&W catalogs to find the proper names and use them.

 

[cmdrcody]

Indeed there is no reason I would ever use that term because when Smith & Wesson invented model numbers they did. Prior to that the revolvers had names. There was no pre - anything.

The box for my 3.5" pre model 27 says .357 Magnum.

 

[flundertaker]

All models of S&W revolvers ever built had an official name and none made before 1957 or 1958 were named pre-anything. Just check period S&W catalogs to find the proper names and use them.

I get it but it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. There's no going back. There's at least 4 other threads with the term in the title alone on the first page on this subforum. No telling how many others have references to the term in the thread. Being technically correct is one thing and educating people is fine but it reminds of the last wannamaker show. A seller had what I referred to as a model 27 in a glass case with several other guns. I asked to look at the "model 27", his reply was, "I don't have a model 27", I sighed and said "can I see the pre-27". He said "I don't have a pre-27". I gave him a what the look and pointed at the gun. He said "that's the .357 magnum". I pointed to the security six next to it and said "that's a .357 magnum as well" he replied "not the .357 magnum". Yeah whatever, I heard all I need from this seller, he was being difficult for no reason other than being technically correct and playing name games when he knew from my first question which gun I was interested in. Needless to say I hope he's still trying to sell it by being unnecessarily stubborn.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hey, it stimulates trade.
There's a Registered Magnum, a Non-Registered Magnum, a Transitional Magnum, a pre-27, a 27, a 27-1, and a 27-2. There are later ones, but the -2 as the last of the "P&R" is about the latest one with a fan base.

So, seven distinct guns, don't you want a COMPLETE collection?

 

[Jack Flash]

We all have our preferences, our likes and dislikes, but I agree with Flundertaker that you can easily go overboard with being a stickler about using the precise terms. If I ran into a seller like he described, I would have no further contact with the jerk.

 

[SouthNarc]

A seller had what I referred to as a model 27 in a glass case with several other guns. I asked to look at the "model 27", his reply was, "I don't have a model 27", I sighed and said "can I see the pre-27". He said "I don't have a pre-27". I gave him a what the look and pointed at the gun. He said "that's the .357 magnum". I pointed to the security six next to it and said "that's a .357 magnum as well" he replied "not the .357 magnum". Yeah whatever, I heard all I need from this seller, he was being difficult for no reason other than being technically correct and playing name games when he knew from my first question which gun I was interested in. Needless to say I hope he's still trying to sell it by being unnecessarily stubborn.

Wow....

Someone who treats another like that IN PERSON has either A) a fairly significant developmental disorder, or B) has never worn the physical consequences for being rude and disrespectful.

 

[Retired W4]

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

Everybody knows the Falcon was the Pre-Mustang.

 

[Hondo44]

In order to have or need the designation of "pre" when discussing a particular handgun, its required, I would think, that the model or specific type (however it was referred to) gun was made both prior to and following the introduction of model numbers. So guns that ceased production prior to 1957 and those whose manufacture began after 1957 would never have a "pre-model" version, correct? I am curios what's the list of guns that there are "pre-model" versions of? Obvious there's pre 27, pre 29 but Im guessing there's a bunch. Some may have long since gone away but if they spanned the just the right few years in the mid and late 50's then their out there, right?

The answers to your 1st and 3rd questions is correct and right.

Pre model is just one example of a collector shorthand term that can be useful but more often misunderstood and mis-used. An egregious example is calling a pre war .38 M&P a pre model 10. More common examples are similar to this: calling a .32 Hand Ejector Improved I frame a pre model 30. There are three post war pre model number .32 Hand Ejector models that are not "Pre-Models".

It's better to avoid the term and learn the Model names and use them, and for more precise identification, use the collector names and/or screw count.

 

[Checkman]

A seller had what I referred to as a model 27 in a glass case with several other guns. I asked to look at the "model 27", his reply was, "I don't have a model 27", I sighed and said "can I see the pre-27". He said "I don't have a pre-27". I gave him a what the look and pointed at the gun. He said "that's the .357 magnum". I pointed to the security six next to it and said "that's a .357 magnum as well" he replied "not the .357 magnum". Yeah whatever, I heard all I need from this seller, he was being difficult for no reason other than being technically correct and playing name games when he knew from my first question which gun I was interested in.

That seller sounds like a pedantic jerk.

 

[glowe]

. . . as Kevin Costner said in the Untouchables . . .

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvws6by_i9k[/ame]

 

[JMD999]

When "searching " for them its good to search using both identifiers- The -pre- model number, and the old Model name.
(just stating the obvious)

 

[long colt frazier]

Hey, it stimulates trade.
There's a Registered Magnum, a Non-Registered Magnum, a Transitional Magnum, a pre-27, a 27, a 27-1, and a 27-2. There are later ones, but the -2 as the last of the "P&R" is about the latest one with a fan base.

So, seven distinct guns, don't you want a COMPLETE collection?

Well all I need is a non-registered magnum;-)

 

[paplinker]

In order to have or need the designation of "pre" when discussing a particular handgun, its required, I would think, that the model or specific type (however it was referred to) gun was made both prior to and following the introduction of model numbers. So guns that ceased production prior to 1957 and those whose manufacture began after 1957 would never have a "pre-model" version, correct? I am curios what's the list of guns that there are "pre-model" versions of? Obvious there's pre 27, pre 29 but Im guessing there's a bunch. Some may have long since gone away but if they spanned the just the right few years in the mid and late 50's then their out there, right?

I bet you the day a Registered magnum shows up at his shop he will not list it as The 357 Magnum.

23 years of changes on The 357 Magnum

I might have had some fun questions for him asking about the gun.

 

[GypsmJim]

About 15 years ago I went into a Gander Mountain and spied a .357 S&W in the display case. It was labeled as a Model 27, but I knew that it was not a model numbered gun (you can call it "pre" if you want).

The clerk said it was priced low because it had a problem with the trigger. (It had a trigger shoe on it.) I said "I see".

Upon inspection, it appeared unfired. No box though.

When he flipped over the tag it was $295.

That was the fastest my credit card ever got pulled out of my wallet.

 

[robvious]

The grammar police are everywhere... precision is wonderful, and education is necessary... but mandates don't work well for independent rebels and trying to fight that won't ever work... as long as 2 reasonable people understand what is being discussed, nothing else is required... so get over it...
clip, magazine, pre whatever... just grumble to yourself if you need to feel superior... this bores me to tears.. always has, always will.

 

[rct269]

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

It seems like the term "Pre" came into being as a crutch for folks who didn't know the proper name of what they were talking about.

That in turn created folks like me who have to look up almost all model number guns in order to understand what they are talking about.

Does all this have anything to do with "vicious circles"?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Retired W4]

I actually have several factory letters that identify guns, in part as pre-29, pre-27, pre...well you get my point. Post WW II, non model marked S&W revolvers. When someone calls a magazine a clip, I know what they are talking about. Not too many people get too upset when others use abbreviations and/or acronyms. Communication is a wonderful thing.

 

[GypsmJim]

".45 Long Colt"

It 's wrong, it's stupid, it makes some people cringe.

So what? If the term makes someone understand what you are talking about, what's the difference?

I label all my finished ammo boxes with a Dymo. Gotta conserve the tape, so the less letters, the better. Some boxes say "45 ACP" and others say "45 LC" It conserves tape because "Colt" has 2 more letters.

Right now I'm busy and don't have time to talk more. I'm cleaning my old hand ejector with the partridge sight.

 

[rct269]

The fact of the matter ("fact" being a matter of opinion) is this "Pre" business quickly followed the use of model numbers instead of names. That in turn followed the decision to try making more money by spending less money---as opposed to continuing to strive to produce the best possible product for the price--instead of producing the product at the lowest possible cost----and it was pretty easy to figure out creative people cost more than drones. Somewhere along in here they decided maybe they could have it both ways as far as product goes, and the Performance Center came into being. If you want the very best product for the price, we can still accommodate you. I don't know how that worked out--having more interest in old stuff rather than new stuff.

At any rate, what we see (and fuss about) today started a good long time ago when we drooled and slobbered over the offerings. Since then we have, to one degree or another, stopped being viewed as potential customers, and more as lunatic fringe fuss-budgets---who clearly are of no moment.

At this point it can either get better or get worse---anybody taking bets one way or the other?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DWalt]

And there were no Model of 1905 or Model of 1902 revolvers made by S&W after around 1914. Although there is no factory "Pre-" prefix, it is a useful convention to identify those revolvers made during the 1947-57 period.

 

[Keith Brown]

I guess all collector speak is simply wrong, and I simply don't care. Cokes, Lerks grips/stock/handles fishhook hammers pre whatever, I get it. I think most people want basic info first, they may be interested in the more advanced opinions and particulars later, just my opinion.
Now I'm going back to work on next years display "My 1905s from the mid thirty's" along with the "Best of my Pre Model Smiths"

 

[toddimusnimski]

I'm cleaning my old hand ejector with the partridge sight.

1. Observe the target to mentally establish the distance between the
throwing position and the target area. In observing the target, minimize
exposure time to the enemy (no more than 3 seconds).
2. Grip the hand grenade in the throwing hand.
3. Grasp the pull ring with the index or middle finger of the nonthrowing
hand. Remove the safety pin with a pulling and twisting motion. If the
tactical situation permits, observe the safety pin's removal.
4. Look at the target and throw the grenade using the overhand method so
that the grenade arcs, landing on or near the target

Thanks for the chuckle Jim

 

[RKmesa]

As a collector of the .357 Magnum (guns in the caliber as well as guns with the name), I regularly find it helpful to use the "Pre-27" designation. It is much quicker to describe a "The .357 Magnum" that when S&W assigned model numbers also became known as the "Model 27" as a 4- or 5-Screw "Pre-27" (even the name police group know what I am talking about). THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM OPPOSED TO USING THE NAME OF THE GUN - I happen to really like the names that S&W called most of their firearms. Another 357 Magnum case in point - it is helpful to describe a pre-war ".357 Magnum" as a "Registered Magnum" if it has "REG" stamped on the frame, and as a "Non-Registered Magnum" if it does not - those names were never used by the factory, but they are very helpful to those of us that collect those wonderful revolvers. Another example in the 357 Magnum world where the pre- designation adds clarity is when applied to the discussion of a Highway Patrolman, where "Pre-28" nomenclature is used to describe a Highway Patrolman that was produced prior to the factory designating model numbers. And you cannot just use the number of screws, as there are 4-screw HPs with Model numbers and 4-screw HPs without Model numbers, and at least one 4-screw Model 28-1.

Words matter and are helpful in expressing our intent. When properly applied, I find the "pre" designation for S&Ws of the 1950s (and late 1940s in some cases) to be very helpful - even though I also know, love, and use the names that S&W assigned to these wonderful firearms.

There you have it - my $0.01.

 

[Frailer]

I can certainly understand—and respect—the pet peeves of others; I have more than my own fair share of them. I also tend to be pedantic by nature, much to the annoyance of my associates.

Every hobby has its own set of terminology that is used to enable precise communication. But some of us (and I count myself among that number on occasion) can get a bit too wound around the axle. The vendor described above is an excellent example of this. These terms can also be used as a means of "gatekeeping" to keep the uninitiated at arm's length.

For the most part if I know what the other party is trying to say I try not to get too excited about the words they used. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone calls a detachable magazine a "clip," for example. But I try to be considerate of the sensibilities of others, so I typically use quotation marks whenever I use "pre-model" nomenclature.